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GTHA Transit Fare Integration

afransen

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Exactly that, similar to the idea of a time based transfer: you would be charged based on the amount of time you are riding transit. The reason this is currently not possible is many parts of the system are not configured for a tap off (ex. There aren't readers at the backdoor of a bus). The reason I propose a location based idea is it would allow more seamless transit usage and may eventually eliminate the need for faregates.
The zone based fares would need tap off, no?

Wouldn't this penalize people for delays, etc.?
 

asher__jo

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The zone based fares would need tap off, no?

Wouldn't this penalize people for delays, etc.?
My idea would negate the need to tap off because it is using your phone and not the Presto card to sense when the trip has ended. Bluetooth Indoor Positioning and Tracking Solutions
The article articulates the technology that is available, however used for different purposes right now.
 

afransen

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I don't think a time based fare makes much sense at all. The rider has no control over how long their trip is, and longer duration trips (controlling for distance) are less valuable than shorter duration trips.
 

ssiguy2

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The system makes perfect sense and would cause RER ridership to soar and not only in the city but also between suburb to suburb trips making it truly a subway-lite system as opposed to the basic commuter one it remain today despite much higher frequencies than even a decade ago. My only concern with these very logical plan would be how exactly would they cut up the city of Toronto? Toronto, due to it's grid system, has many cross-town routes so where exactly would the boundaries start and stop? In Vancouver such a system was easy to set up because there are very few transit routes that cross Vancouver into the suburbs where the boundary between the 2 is very obvious. Even with this issue, this system would do wonders for the entire region and everyone would benefit.

Of course getting it to happen requires political will and we all know how that is in short supply at Metrolinx. To get around this, a strong arm is need from Queen's Park. This is bullying tactics can work wonders. QP should give ML a firm deadline of 1 year to come up with a plan and if they can't then QP should threaten to come up with one themselves. They have been studying this to death and will continue to do so until until QP lays down the law and forces the issue for both an agreement and implementation date.

Sometimes a gun at you head is the only way to force people to take action.
 

Coolstar

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The system makes perfect sense and would cause RER ridership to soar and not only in the city but also between suburb to suburb trips making it truly a subway-lite system as opposed to the basic commuter one it remain today despite much higher frequencies than even a decade ago. My only concern with these very logical plan would be how exactly would they cut up the city of Toronto? Toronto, due to it's grid system, has many cross-town routes so where exactly would the boundaries start and stop? In Vancouver such a system was easy to set up because there are very few transit routes that cross Vancouver into the suburbs where the boundary between the 2 is very obvious. Even with this issue, this system would do wonders for the entire region and everyone would benefit.
I mentioned how the fare boundaries would split up in Toronto here if that is what you're looking for. ⬇️

The report only focused on the GTHA as well as the Innovation Corridor out to Kitchener. But the idea can be extended to other areas like Simcoe or Niagara. Also, keep in mind the map from the report isn't the only map they released. The Toronto Region Board of Trade also released an interactive map and it's quite clear where the zone boundaries are located. This is where "Inner Toronto" meets "Outer Toronto".

View attachment 286448
Interactive Map: https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/4cff253fbab44ca19005d8a1ebe0013a

The Northern Boundary is at Eglinton Ave. Since Line 5 runs on Eglinton, the line would be located in Zone B so that passengers from other zones won't have to pay another fare for Zone A in order to transfer to Line 5. The Eastern boundary borders Scarborough and the Western boundary borders Etobicoke. Zone A is mostly contained within the Old City of Toronto as well as most of York, East York, and a small part of North York.
 

afransen

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My only concern with these very logical plan would be how exactly would they cut up the city of Toronto? Toronto, due to it's grid system, has many cross-town routes so where exactly would the boundaries start and stop? In Vancouver such a system was easy to set up because there are very few transit routes that cross Vancouver into the suburbs where the boundary between the 2 is very obvious. Even with this issue, this system would do wonders for the entire region and everyone would benefit.
Every trip within the city of Toronto would pay the same fare, so no 'cutting up of the city' in this proposal. Only those travelling from outside Toronto would face a possible additional fare for travelling into Toronto if going 'downtown' or the central zone. But someone could go from Winston Churchill and Eglinton to Scarborough for the same fare as someone going a few blocks in Toronto.
 

Johnny Au

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Every trip within the city of Toronto would pay the same fare, so no 'cutting up of the city' in this proposal. Only those travelling from outside Toronto would face a possible additional fare for travelling into Toronto if going 'downtown' or the central zone. But someone could go from Winston Churchill and Eglinton to Scarborough for the same fare as someone going a few blocks in Toronto.
...or from Kennedy Road and Eglinton Avenue East in Mississauga to Kennedy Road and Eglinton Avenue East in Scarborough.
 

Coolstar

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Interesting update on fare integration. We might finally have something by next year.

1616090093812.png


Source: http://www.metrolinx.com/en/docs/pdf/board_agenda/20210325/20210325_BoardMtg_Planning_Quarterly.pdf
 

afransen

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The Waterfront West Line (507?) needs to be bumped up to better feed riders from The Queensway and Lake Shore Boulevard West from Mimico, New Toronto, and Long Branch. Maybe a Queensway streetcar line in Etobicoke could be created, replacing 80 QUEENSWAY bus, from Sherway Gardens. Too bad the "Waterfront Transit Reset" put a stop, or just a "reset", to those plans.
Why not just take GO? With electrification we should be seeing frequent high speed rail service that can bring riders to Ex or downtown. Streetcar/LRT is for local service.
 
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afransen

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Will we be able to transfer from GO to the "Ontario" Line for free, or at least a discount, by the time the "Ontario" Line opens? What if I want to go to the Science Centre from Port Credit?


Discount for GO Transit, TTC riders ends March 31 (2020) after province pulls funding

Ford government announced last year it would not fund program

From link.
Lack of fare integration isn't a reason to spend billions on redundant, inferior infrastructure. We need to get proper fare integration.
 

ARG1

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There will be TWO terminal stations for the "Ontario" Line. Science Centre Station for the northeast terminal, and Exhibition Station for the southwest terminal.

Terminal stations should be feeding the "Ontario" Line.

Kipling Station and Vaughan Metropolitan Station (still don't like that name) are terminal stations, with many feeder bus routes feeding them. Scarborough Town Centre for the Line 2 extension and High Tech Station (?) for the Line 1 extension should have feeders routes coming into them, once they open.

"Ontario" Line's Science Centre Station will be fed from the north via Don Mills Road and Line 5.

"Ontario" Line's Exhibition Station will be fed from the west from ?

Likely the 29 DUFFERIN, 63 OSSINGTON, 511 BATHURST, and 509 HARBOURFRONT would feed some riders. 121 FORT YORK-ESPLANADE maybe very few riders. However, from the west? The Lakeshore West GO Train may feed some riders, IF (and its a big IF) there is some sort fare discount between GO and the TTC (thank you, Doug Ford, for that).

The Waterfront West Line (507?) needs to be bumped up to better feed riders from The Queensway and Lake Shore Boulevard West from Mimico, New Toronto, and Long Branch. Maybe a Queensway streetcar line in Etobicoke could be created, replacing 80 QUEENSWAY bus, from Sherway Gardens. Too bad the "Waterfront Transit Reset" put a stop, or just a "reset", to those plans.

1920px-TTCWaterfrontWestMap.svg.png
From link.
First, a small correction. Yonge North's main terminus station will be bridge center, it is where most of the transfer from Viva and the future 407 Transitway will take place. High Tech only exists because its an easy to build station serving a few development that will serve trains coming out of the new MSF located north of High Tech.

As for Exhibition, the primary goal is indeed to be fed by Lakeshore West. Yes for this to work the Ontario Line must have proper fare integration with GO, however this is a statement that could surprisingly work in many places, not just the Ontario Line. For GO RER to be successful in general, there needs to be fare integration with the TTC, no questions asked, not even a fare discount but a pure "your TTC fare will work on GO within Toronto" system, similar to what TRBOT proposed in their first report on Fare Integration. Fare Integration is an important conversation with or without the Ontario Line, the Ontario Line only makes this question more vital.
Why not just take GO? With electrification we should be seeing frequent high speed rail service that can bring riders to Ex or downtown. Streetcar/LRT is for local service.
The next part is a response to both posts.

A major point to the Ontario Line that people seem to be forgetting about is that on top of relieving Bloor-Yonge, it is also meant to relieve Union Station. Even with the current reconstruction, Union Station will not be able to sustain the amount of people that RER is supposed to bring to the station at a regular basis. This is why Front-Spadina is being proposed as a Barrie Line station directly west of Union, since the idea is that commuters could leave out to their employment area and workplace without travelling all the way to Union Station, to try and not overcrowd the station. Think of this like the Sydney City Circle, and the relationship that Sydney Central, Town Hall, and Wynyard Stations have in terms of relieving each other. . Similarly, a major part of the Ontario Line is giving commuters on Lakeshore West a way to access downtown Toronto without needing to go through the large and crowded Union Station, where if you're riding on Lakeshore West, if you destination is somewhere in the middle of downtown such as at Queen, Richmond, or even College, instead of travelling all the way to Union Station you can transfer to the Ontario Line and travel another way. Given how large Union Station is, and how long it takes to transfer from the trains to the subway/streetcar, it might not even be slower to take the Ontario Line to Queen Station compared to riding GO all the way to Union. East Harbour Station is being designed with a similar idea in mind, getting people off of the Stouffville Line and LSE trains to get to downtown while bypassing Union Station, and is the reason why having a convenient transfer is extremely important to that station compared to the old 4 stories deep plan.
 

Coolstar

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As for Exhibition, the primary goal is indeed to be fed by Lakeshore West. Yes for this to work the Ontario Line must have proper fare integration with GO, however this is a statement that could surprisingly work in many places, not just the Ontario Line. For GO RER to be successful in general, there needs to be fare integration with the TTC, no questions asked, not even a fare discount but a pure "your TTC fare will work on GO within Toronto" system, similar to what TRBOT proposed in their first report on Fare Integration. Fare Integration is an important conversation with or without the Ontario Line, the Ontario Line only makes this question more vital.
Luckily there seems to be some movement once again on the whole fare integration idea.

1618096082693.png
 

TheTigerMaster

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As for Exhibition, the primary goal is indeed to be fed by Lakeshore West. Yes for this to work the Ontario Line must have proper fare integration with GO, however this is a statement that could surprisingly work in many places, not just the Ontario Line. For GO RER to be successful in general, there needs to be fare integration with the TTC, no questions asked, not even a fare discount but a pure "your TTC fare will work on GO within Toronto" system, similar to what TRBOT proposed in their first report on Fare Integration. Fare Integration is an important conversation with or without the Ontario Line, the Ontario Line only makes this question more vital.

Luckily there seems to be some movement once again on the whole fare integration idea.

View attachment 311870

MX has been talking about fare integration for 7 or 8 years now. Could they possibly move any slower on this?

Now obviously I completely support the idea of fare integration, but the fact that it's been progressing so slowly indicates that the government really isn't all that enthusiastic about it's implementation. Fare integration will cost GTHA operators money, and that money is either coming from the provincial government, or out of our fares. There is no zero-cost solution for fare integration.

The hesitation of QP and MX support fare integration makes me highly skeptical of any infrastructure schemes that are dependant on fare integration for success. QP can cancel fare integration with the swoop of a pen, eliminating much of the effectiveness of these multi-billion transit lines. Indeed, this very government eliminated the TTC-GO fare integration shortly after entering office.

In short, fare integration seems like a bit of a pipe dream until there is a fundamental reorganization of GTHA transit operations. Fare integration shoehorned into the current system will not be viable with any degree of certainty for the longterm.
 
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