GTHA Regional Transit Amalgamation Discussion: Superlinx/Subway Upload

[TheTigerMaster]

LIMITED CHANCES TO REDUCE GOVERNMENT SPENDING AND CUT DEFICIT: FAO

Not directly linked to the subway, but important context nevertheless. How does the government plan to reduce the deficit, while adding billions in spending due to their subway upload, without raising taxes? A billion of provincial dollars spent on the subway means that a billion needs to be cut elsewhere.

The answer is: There is no answer.

Precisely. They either add to Ontario's defect or they just don't do the subway upload. They can't have their cake and eat it too. To put this in perspective, the deficit currently sits at $13 Billion, and its looking like the subway upload will be adding several billion in new spending to the QP's books (I'm not a financial expert, so I'll refrain from using specific numbers here). Meanwhile, today's AGO report says that the government doesn't have a lot of room to trim spending elsewhere (so it's tough to just slash spending elsewhere to accommodate the subway spending). The government really seems to be between a rock and a hard place here.

And if you read the Steve Munro article I posted yesterday, you'll see that the government has already built themselves a way out of this subway upload mess. The third option proposed by the government (realignment of responsibilities that do not involve the transfer of assets) would essentially have the City and Metrolinx agree that Metrolinx would be responsible for executing all "new" transit expansions. This option is essentially the status quo, but it lets Queen's Park claim victory while changing absolutely nothing.

Note that option 3 gets is a bit messy, because its not clear how Metrolinx would manage expansion of TTC-owned properties, such as Line 1 and Line 2, or the Relief Line, which is currently planned to utilize TTC-owned yards via the TTC-owned line 2. Most probable outcome that Steve suggested is that the TTC would continue to be responsible for expansions utilizing TTC-owned infrastructure, which I suppose would mean that TTC would retain responsibility for all subway extensions in the foreseeable future (ECLRT is the only planned "subway" line that is truly independent of preexisting TTC infrastructure).

Now I don't put it beyond Ford to say "screw the debt, I want my own subway". But I also don't put it beyond this government to carefully walk back its position, while also claiming victory. Exhibit A: This week, we just witnessed the PC government roll out their own carbon tax plan (just don't call it a carbon tax ), while continuing to rail against the Trudeau Liberals near-identical carbon tax plan.

Only time will tell the outcome, but overall it seems improbable that QP will be taking over the subways anytime soon. Which is a good thing. That means we can defer this regional transit discussion for a few years, until we get some grown ups in office in QP.

 

[thettctransitfanatic]

Precisely. They either add to Ontario's defect or they just don't do the subway upload. They can't have their cake and eat it too. To put this in perspective, the deficit currently sits at $13 Billion, and its looking like the subway upload will be adding several billion in new spending to the QP's books (I'm not a financial expert, so I'll refrain from using specific numbers here). Meanwhile, today's AGO report says that the government doesn't have a lot of room to trim spending elsewhere (so it's tough to just slash spending elsewhere to accommodate the subway spending). The government really seems to be between a rock and a hard place here.

And if you read the Steve Munro article I posted yesterday, you'll see that the government has already built themselves a way out of this subway upload mess. The third option proposed by the government (realignment of responsibilities that do not involve the transfer of assets) would essentially have the City and Metrolinx agree that Metrolinx would be responsible for executing all "new" transit expansions. This option is essentially the status quo, but it lets Queen's Park claim victory while changing absolutely nothing.

Note that option 3 gets is a bit messy, because its not clear how Metrolinx would manage expansion of TTC-owned properties, such as Line 1 and Line 2, or the Relief Line, which is currently planned to utilize TTC-owned yards via the TTC-owned line 2. Most probable outcome that Steve suggested is that the TTC would continue to be responsible for expansions utilizing TTC-owned infrastructure, which I suppose would mean that TTC would retain responsibility for all subway extensions in the foreseeable future (ECLRT is the only planned "subway" line that is truly independent of preexisting TTC infrastructure).

Now I don't put it beyond Ford to say "screw the debt, I want my own subway". But I also don't put it beyond this government to carefully walk back its position, while also claiming victory. Exhibit A: This week, we just witne
ss the PC government roll out their own carbon tax plan (with different branding), while continuing to rail against the Trudeau Liberals carbon tax plan.

Only time will tell the outcome, but overall it seems improbable that QP will be taking over the subways anytime soon. Which is a good thing. That means we can defer this regional transit discussion for a few years, until we get some grown ups in office in QP.

It is way off topic, but what's the carbon tax plan about? It is different from the Libs plan ( I am assuming way different).

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Precisely. They either add to Ontario's defect or they just don't do the subway upload. They can't have their cake and eat it too. To put this in perspective, the deficit currently sits at $13 Billion, and its looking like the subway upload will be adding several billion in new spending to the QP's books (I'm not a financial expert, so I'll refrain from using specific numbers here). Meanwhile, today's AGO report says that the government doesn't have a lot of room to trim spending elsewhere (so it's tough to just slash spending elsewhere to accommodate the subway spending). The government really seems to be between a rock and a hard place here.

And if you read the Steve Munro article I posted yesterday, you'll see that the government has already built themselves a way out of this subway upload mess. The third option proposed by the government (realignment of responsibilities that do not involve the transfer of assets) would essentially have the City and Metrolinx agree that Metrolinx would be responsible for executing all "new" transit expansions. This option is essentially the status quo, but it lets Queen's Park claim victory while changing absolutely nothing.

Note that option 3 gets is a bit messy, because its not clear how Metrolinx would manage expansion of TTC-owned properties, such as Line 1 and Line 2, or the Relief Line, which is currently planned to utilize TTC-owned yards via the TTC-owned line 2. Most probable outcome that Steve suggested is that the TTC would continue to be responsible for expansions utilizing TTC-owned infrastructure, which I suppose would mean that TTC would retain responsibility for all subway extensions in the foreseeable future (ECLRT is the only planned "subway" line that is truly independent of preexisting TTC infrastructure).

Now I don't put it beyond Ford to say "screw the debt, I want my own subway". But I also don't put it beyond this government to carefully walk back its position, while also claiming victory. Exhibit A: This week, we just witnessed the PC government roll out their own carbon tax plan (just don't call it a carbon tax ), while continuing to rail against the Trudeau Liberals near-identical carbon tax plan.

Only time will tell the outcome, but overall it seems improbable that QP will be taking over the subways anytime soon. Which is a good thing. That means we can defer this regional transit discussion for a few years, until we get some grown ups in office in QP.

Should also add that I say this with the caveat that I really don’t understand what measures the government could take to hide this additional spending. I hear that if the government spends, say, $1 Billion on capital expenditures, they might be able to make it look like they’re not adding to the deficit by claiming they now own an asset “worth” $1 Billion. If someone with some financial expertise wants to chime in, I’d appreciate it.

It is way off topic, but what's the carbon tax plan about? It is different from the Libs plan ( I am assuming way different).

Take a look at this article: https://www.nationalobserver.com/20...nment-just-proposed-plan-looks-lot-carbon-tax

Looks a lot like the Liberal carbon tax. I haven’t read the legislation though, so don’t take my word for gospel.

 

[steveintoronto]

The third option proposed by the government (realignment of responsibilities that do not involve the transfer of assets) would essentially have the City and Metrolinx agree that Metrolinx would be responsible for executing all "new" transit expansions. This option is essentially the status quo, but it lets Queen's Park claim victory while changing absolutely nothing.

I don't put it beyond Ford to say "screw the debt, I want my own subway". But I also don't put it beyond this government to carefully walk back its position, while also claiming victory. Exhibit A: This week, we just witnessed the PC government roll out their own carbon tax plan (just don't call it a carbon tax ), while continuing to rail against the Trudeau Liberals near-identical carbon tax plan.

It's all a perfect segue into Ford's 'sponsoring' a private consortium to build new, desperately needed heavy rail transit. Except Private Enterprise will say "screw you" to Ford. He's just bad news and trouble. And that's being diplomatic.

Enterprise will undoubtedly wish to build. There's an adage to the words of "if the demand is there, and it's reliable and constant, and there's no competition, or even better, you have a 'no competition' clause from the regulating body, then you have a sound investment". Caveats apply of course, all to work out in the contract/legislation.

And the legislation is key: With the Feds, via an agency like the InfraBank that also hosts the Fed's contribution, offering a Federal Charter under Section 92(10) of the Constitution
From railroads to pipelines, the Constitution still prevails - The Globe
Chapter 4: Regulatory Framework - Transport Canada
the Constitution Act, 1867 - McGill Law Journal

etc.. etc...

It would be conceivable that the Province could/would, via Metrolinx, operate their own rolling stock on this line/system the Relief Line writ large would be an obvious start and the Consortium may or may not reform with different partners for other projects, like VIA HFR and the Freight ByPass/Missing Link.

Next to nothing on the books for the Cons or the City, same contribution from the Feds, albeit matched and surpassed by Private Capital usually the ratio is about 4:1 Private to Gov't service is delivered much faster to the public, and ultimately, it is delivered cheaper than some half-assed agency like Metrolinx. The litany of their shortcomings is endless. And budget fiascos. Not to mention having Label Boy for Premier.

Sometimes Private is better.

 

[steveintoronto]

Just want to point out that the new TTC map (go look in the Cartography thread) now will show connections with GO at the stop on the map. Another step on the path to showing GO Lines on the TTC Map.

And one has to ask: Why in hell weren't they doing this to begin with?

Another step on the path to showing GO Lines on the TTC Map.

It beggars belief that it wouldn't have been all these years. Is it any wonder that transit in the GTHA has so many shortcomings?

 

[nfitz]

And one has to ask: Why in hell weren't they doing this to begin with?
It beggars belief that it wouldn't have been all these years.

How much more stuff do you want to squeeze on the narrow strip map over the doors?

And why would you be showing infrequent (most lines don't even run much of the day) lines that aren't TTC fare?

Surely squeezing all that stuff above the subway doors would be hell!

Now perhaps there should be a prominently posted system map in more stations. I can't say I ever seem to notice them as frequently as I see them in bus shelters!

 

[steveintoronto]

How much more stuff do you want to squeeze on the narrow strip map over the doors?

lol...What's posted "over the doors" is a version of the map, not the map itself. And even so, can't have people knowing their connections now, can we?

So let's see, London, Paris, New York, etc, etc, all have mainline connections on their maps. But only Torontonians are incapable of dealing with knowing where their stop might be?

Pity...

Here's the map...and oddly enough, it's not "above a door". Some jump to wild concussions:

The TTC just introduced upgraded subway and streetcar maps | Urbanized

The new maps show streetcar routes in addition to subway lines, so even if you can't access your Maps app underground, you'll know where to transfer.

dailyhive.com

Perhaps a 'smartphone' will be necessary for some to read it?

 

[nfitz]

lol...What's posted "over the doors" is a version of the map, not the map itself. And even so, can't have people knowing their connections now, can we?

So let's see, London, Paris, New York, etc, etc, all have mainline connections on their maps. But only Torontonians are incapable of dealing with knowing where their stop might be?

Pity...

Here's the map...and oddly enough, it's not "above a door". Some jump to wild concussions:
View attachment 173984

The TTC just introduced upgraded subway and streetcar maps | Urbanized

The new maps show streetcar routes in addition to subway lines, so even if you can't access your Maps app underground, you'll know where to transfer.

dailyhive.com

Perhaps a 'smartphone' will be necessary for some to read it?

London doesn't have network rail lines showing on maps on tube trains last time I was there. Heck, many trains don't seem to have full tube maps anymore.

Sure, there bigger and better maps posted in stations. Though I see a lot more full TTC network maps in bus shelters here than I do there!

 

[steveintoronto]

London doesn't have network rail lines showing on maps on tube stations last time I was there.

You continue to amuse...I used to live there, three times actually, depending on how you count work sojourns and EU citizenship, and you're wrong!

First off, the discussion was about stations being marked on the "new TTC maps". I suggest you read back. Mainline stations have always been marked on Underground maps.

Not only that, TfL is now in charge of the Underground maps and wayfinding.

I suggest you take a look:

http://content.tfl.gov.uk/standard-tube-map.pdf

And what could could these possibly be?

Sure, there bigger and better maps posted in stations. Though I see a lot more full TTC network maps in bus shelters here than I do there!

It's in a subway car, next to the door. If you accessed the link, you'd see that:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1095794968776638464

 

[nfitz]

I suggest you take a look:

http://content.tfl.gov.uk/standard-tube-map.pdf

And what could could these possibly be?

Why so uncivil?

Also, that map you linked doesn't have network rail on it. It has TFL lines, like Tube, Trams (streetcars), Overground, and the temporary TFL Rail service (to be re-branded as Elizabeth line). It doesn't have even have Thameslink for example. It doesn't even have the Northern City line on it. And it certainly doesn't have the GO-like commuter mainline rail lines. Not sure where you saw one with the proposed unfunded "Crossrail 2" line - but I've never seen one in London. Nor is it on your PDF.

Also that map isn't on many (if not most!) tube trains. We are discussing the new TTC map on subway trains. London often has only had a strip map of the route you are on. Some (many?) trains now have a cutdown map called the "Central London Tube Map". But not even a complete tube map, let alone lines like Thameslink, Heathrow Express, etc.

 

[steveintoronto]

Why so uncivil?

Because you're yet again changing what's being discussed.

Here's what was posted:

Just want to point out that the new TTC map (go look in the Cartography thread) now will show connections with GO at the stop on the map. Another step on the path to showing GO Lines on the TTC Map.

What you have posted is the "150 years" Underground map. It shows mainline stations, whether national rail

or Transport for London

Here is what you have posted: (It's the 2013 map if anyone cares to search for)

It shows all the mainline and TfL stations that the Underground intersects for passenger transfer. It was Fitz who altered the discussion to his terms here:

London doesn't have network rail lines showing on maps on tube trains last time I was there.

No-one mentioned the lines themselves. All that was stated to that point was connections.

 

[nfitz]

Because you're yet again changing what's being discussed.

Here's what was posted:

What you have posted is the "150 years" Underground map. It shows mainline stations, whether national rail View attachment 173996 or Transport for London View attachment 173997

Here is what you have posted: (It's the 2013 map if anyone cares to search for)


It shows all the mainline and TfL stations that the Underground intersects for passenger transfer.

With all your digresions, along with text and images inserted everywhere, I can barely comprehend what point you are trying to make.

I'm unsure why you are posting maps that aren't on trains, in a discussion about maps that are on trains. This seems to be changing the subject.

If you are referring to showing connections to national rail, then the new map has GO symbols.

Your claim that any tube trains are showing Crossrail 2 seems not to be true.

 

[steveintoronto]

You continue to amuse...I used to live there, three times actually, depending on how you count work sojourns and EU citizenship, and you're wrong!

First off, the discussion was about stations being marked on the "new TTC maps". I suggest you read back. Mainline stations have always been marked on Underground maps.

You then continued to lead yourself down a rabbit hole of your own making.

I'm unsure why you are posting maps that aren't on trains, in a discussion about maps that are on trains.

Both the 2013 underground map (150 years) and the new 2019 TTC map are on trains. That's why I posted the pics. You posted the Underground one. I posted the link to the map shown.

 

[nfitz]

You continue to amuse...I used to live there, three times actually, depending on how you count work sojourns and EU citizenship, and you're wrong!

First off, the discussion was about stations being marked on the "new TTC maps". I suggest you read back. Mainline stations have always been marked on Underground maps.

I was born there, and have been riding the tube since the 1960s. But how is either of those relevant?

Why do you think any tube trains have full tube maps? And why do you think Crossrail 2 has ever appeared on any map in a tube train?

Why do you claim I posted a 2013 tube map? I only posted a photo clearly showing the Central London map that's on trains - if you look in the image, it's very clear that it's not a full tube map, only the centre bit.

Also, they do currently above the door show GO stations. Look at the strips on the left.

More to the point, the discussion started when you suggested they should have been putting GO lines on the maps, and I queried about that being too much info.

Now you are trying to pretend it's all about the GO symbols?!?

 

[Allandale25]

Recent column in Spacing on this topic here.

CodeRedTO Op Ed: Does Toronto transit need an upload? Or a download? - Spacing Toronto