GO Transit: Union Station Shed Replacement & Track Upgrades (Zeidler)

[nfitz]

My sense is that most GO passengers inbound to Union are either going to a destination within walking distance of Union Station, or are connecting onward to another GO service.

I'd think that there are more changing to the subway than another GO service.

 

[KhalilHeron]

There is no need to add stations when you convert from one type of train to another. If they want to keep the same stations they can do that.

Moving the transfer point between UP and Lakeshore from Union to Exhibition doesn't increase travel times from Lakeshore to the airport. In fact given the long transfer times at Union there's a good chance it could actually reduce them.

You don't have to add stations, but I find it very doubtful it'd get built without it. Shutting down the UP for a while and replacing it with a different technology without expanding transit access doesn't sound very popular. You could already achieve far higher frequencies than today and electrification for a lot less money than converting the whole thing and I just dont how the benefits justify it. I think a lot of the same capacity goals at union can be partially achieved with new shoulder stations on either side of union, so go trains dont need to terminate at union and can get out of the station faster

 

[Leo_Chan]

Is there any chance for a "Finch West opening realization" for Union Station's train shed, where the public and politicians want it removed for full replacement? I feel the very slow and gradual improvements to GO don't have enough attention for one.

 

[mburrrrr]

Is there a schedule for this project? When could the two new tracks over Sherbourne be installed? We are few steps closer.
2026?

Tonight

Sunday

 

[crs1026]

Is there a schedule for this project? When could the two new tracks over Sherbourne be installed? We are few steps closer.
2026?

ML is never forthcoming with dates, but from those images I would bet on 2027 and not 2026. They still have a lot of concrete to pour, and then they have to erect the trainshed over the tracks. And only after the top slabs are in place, can they start the interior work in the concourse down below. The track slab has been progressing, but the concourse is still open at the top. Ultimately - Until the concourse is approved for occupancy, the new tracks if installed are not useable.

The track itself is a relatively quick task, tieing in the signalling may be a whole other matter.

ML has indicated that the Jarvis and Sherbourne bridges won't be finished until spring, see here. But the bridges are well ahead of the depot work.

- Paul

 

[WB62]

The track slab has been progressing, but the concourse is still open at the top. Ultimately - Until the concourse is approved for occupancy, the new tracks if installed are not useable.

Almost the entire western half of the concourse was covered in October/November, and interior work on that section has commenced.



The big outlier on the west side is the utility room that will go behind the York West Teamway platform entrances, thats the only section on the west side that hasn’t been covered yet.



I still believe this will have a phased opening within the next 2 years, at the very least to provide an alternative connection to the Scotiabank Arena, when the existing blue route is ready to close.

 

[nightstreak]

Almost the entire western half of the concourse was covered in October/November, and interior work on that section has commenced.

View attachment 703527View attachment 703528

The big outlier on the west side is the utility room that will go behind the York West Teamway platform entrances, thats the only section on the west side that hasn’t been covered yet.

View attachment 703529View attachment 703530

I still believe this will have a phased opening within the next 2 years, at the very least to provide an alternative connection to the Scotiabank Arena, when the existing blue route is ready to close.

Not that transit projects in this city inspire any confidence in meeting timelines, but I can’t see outfitting the interior taking 2 years. The hardest work is done in these sections.

I think it’s reasonable to expect parts of this to open next year ahead of closing the current Scotiabank Arena tunnel.

 

[Jaye101]

HSR itself may well go to Pearson, and the Kitchener Line would still go to Union.

Unlike a high speed rail line, a rapid transit line can intercept transit lines at a variety of different locations across the city. On an HSR line, we'd want to keep the stations to a minimum to maintain the high average speeds, so it's much more critical to stop at a couple locations with a lot of different connections.

The Ontario Line would intercept most of the lines heading downtown:
LSW at Exhibition
Line 2 at Dundas West, possibly Milton line
Kitchener Line at Dundas West, Mount Dennis and Woodbine Racetrack
Line 5 at Mount Dennis
Bolton Line at Mount Dennis
Line 1 University at Osgoode
Line 1 Yonge at Queen
Stouffville Line & LSE at East Harbour
Line 2 at Pape
Line 5 at Don Mills & Eglinton

Ah! Honestly, it's for this very reason I feel as though we're making a mistake by not Quad-tracking the OL tunnel between East Harbour and Exhibition and adjusting the turning radii in that section to match mainline standard. Build a new intercity station at City Hall. A western section could be build later with a connection to the Kitchener Line. The service possibilities would be endless!

 

[Urban Sky]

Ah! Honestly, it's for this very reason I feel as though we're making a mistake by not Quad-tracking the OL tunnel between East Harbour and Exhibition and adjusting the turning radii in that section to match mainline standard. Build a new intercity station at City Hall. A western section could be build later with a connection to the Kitchener Line. The service possibilities would be endless!

I’m not sure how many more times this needs to he explained here: intercity rail must serve the hubs which have excellent transit links into the entire region and there is only one such hub in the entire GTHA. Conversely, once a suburban/regional rail corridor has already frequent services to Union Station (i.e., at least every 15 minutes), additional services can be routed to alternative downtown stations (such as Summerhill).

Whatever we do, we must not make it more difficult to get to Union Station and thus to travel across the GTHA than today. It’s not that difficult to understand or is it?

 

[reaperexpress]

You don't have to add stations, but I find it very doubtful it'd get built without it. Shutting down the UP for a while and replacing it with a different technology without expanding transit access doesn't sound very popular. You could already achieve far higher frequencies than today and electrification for a lot less money than converting the whole thing and I just dont how the benefits justify it. I think a lot of the same capacity goals at union can be partially achieved with new shoulder stations on either side of union, so go trains dont need to terminate at union and can get out of the station faster

Rerouting an existing line into an existing downtown tunnel via a new 2km tunnel is a lot cheaper than building a new mainline railway station under Union. If we could free up enough capacity in the station for Alto just with the existing plans for shoulder stations we wouldn't be having this discussion.

 

[crs1026]

I’m not sure how many more times this needs to he explained here: intercity rail must serve the hubs which have excellent transit links into the entire region and there is only one such hub in the entire GTHA. Conversely, once a suburban/regional rail corridor has already frequent services to Union Station (i.e., at least every 15 minutes), additional services can be routed to alternative downtown stations (such as Summerhill).

Whatever we do, we must not make it more difficult to get to Union Station and thus to travel across the GTHA than today. It’s not that difficult to understand or is it?

I agree with your conclusion, but the options being thrown out here may be ones that Alto planners may actually have on their desktop as options....and logic and common sense are not that prevalent in the real world. Even if they already know that some are nonstarters, they have to document the options and the merits. Folks here are trying to replicate and analyse that analysis and decisionmaking as spectators - it may be annoying to have to educate some spectators, but not everyone will hve had professional experience and insight, or access to the real data. Unfortunately some prefer imagination to analysis.

I can't imagine Alto skipping Union, but stranger things have happened. It's good to have the pros and cons laid out by posters, even if the people at Alto hopefully know some to be no-brainers. Those decisions haven't been made yet, having had the discussion here, this forum may help set things straight.

- Paul

 

[crs1026]

Not that transit projects in this city inspire any confidence in meeting timelines, but I can’t see outfitting the interior taking 2 years. The hardest work is done in these sections.

I think it’s reasonable to expect parts of this to open next year ahead of closing the current Scotiabank Arena tunnel.

The two-phase approach may work for fitting out the concourse, but if there is going to be use of the platforms, there needs to be a continuous ground level slab that will support both tracks and the platforms end to end, plus the trainshed complete.

I see a lot of bare rebar and open holes in those images. And I hold low expectations of ML's pace in completing the above ground structures at platforms - too many examples of that taking forever.

Is there really any confidence that the underground parts will be buttoned up and surface level work progressed before, say, next Labour Day ?
´
- Paul

 

[KhalilHeron]

Rerouting an existing line into an existing downtown tunnel via a new 2km tunnel is a lot cheaper than building a new mainline railway station under Union. If we could free up enough capacity in the station for Alto just with the existing plans for shoulder stations we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Im not talking about anything in existing plans. A single barrie line platform at spadina and east harbour won't free track capacity at union. Im talking about large shoulder stations with most GO lines stopping on either side of union, spadina and sherbourne maybe

 

[Voltz]

Ah! Honestly, it's for this very reason I feel as though we're making a mistake by not Quad-tracking the OL tunnel between East Harbour and Exhibition and adjusting the turning radii in that section to match mainline standard. Build a new intercity station at City Hall. A western section could be build later with a connection to the Kitchener Line. The service possibilities would be endless!

If you’re going to build new railway tunnels then just leave them under the railway corridor and serve Union, building them along side the Ontario line would save nothing since they would need to be separate tunnels anyway.

 

[dowlingm]

The global standard procedure is that you would first accommodate the intercity/HSR services and then add as many regional services until the line is full. If the amount of GO trains Metrolinx wants to add to its Corridors exceed the available capacity at Union, then they can start to identify alternative stations to be served downtown (with diverting a few peak-hour train from the Milton Corridor to Summerhill and beyond being a very obvious example).

ALTO does not have such luxury nor should it be pushed to contemplate such alternatives…

What does the HSR enterprise generally contribute to the capital and operating budgets of the relevant track corridors and stations, in such cases?

I have noted before that Alto would be benefiting from Ontario's and Toronto's combined investments in the USRC and Union Station, but requiring Metrolinx to schedule its capacity only once Alto has had dibs would surely result in a request for Alto to make a significant financial contribution beyond whatever rent VIA pay, to help fund the overflow station or stations needed as described above? Particularly given what it apparently costs to build new stations at/south of Bloor on the mainline.