GO Transit: Union Station Shed Replacement & Track Upgrades (Zeidler)

[just east of the creek]

Re the above question. I would also ask if the heritage train shed would be an impediment? I have/ am a staunch supporter of preserving heritage where possible, and supported the preservation of the train shed. However, depending on those answers, it may be time to look at alternate preservation I.e. dismantling portions needed to enable modern electrified operations and moving those portions or parts of those portions to an alternate site and/or use.

 

[Urban Sky]

As Alto HSR proceeds and we talk about station placement, I have a question, does Union have the capacity to host an Alto terminus?

While also hosting current rail service and GO Expansion and UPE?

The global standard procedure is that you would first accommodate the intercity/HSR services and then add as many regional services until the line is full. If the amount of GO trains Metrolinx wants to add to its Corridors exceed the available capacity at Union, then they can start to identify alternative stations to be served downtown (with diverting a few peak-hour train from the Milton Corridor to Summerhill and beyond being a very obvious example).

ALTO does not have such luxury nor should it be pushed to contemplate such alternatives…

 

[Voltz]

As Alto HSR proceeds and we talk about station placement, I have a question, does Union have the capacity to host an Alto terminus?

While also hosting current rail service and GO Expansion and UPE?

At the very least leaving room in the design for the current platform rebuilding for high level platforms for Alto and Via should be required.

 

[kEiThZ]

At the very least leaving room in the design for the current platform rebuilding for high level platforms for Alto and Via should be required.

I am not even thinking about platform height. Just the raw numbers of tracks and platforms.

I assume the goal is for each service to have it's own track. By that measure GO might need something like 6-8 tracks even if services are through-running (for example Lakeshore West becomes Lakeshore East at Union). Throw in 2 tracks for VIA, 2 for Alto and one for UPE. I am wondering if there's enough room.

Going by US' assertion of priority for VIA and Alto, how would GO manage?

 

[crs1026]

As Alto HSR proceeds and we talk about station placement, I have a question, does Union have the capacity to host an Alto terminus?

While also hosting current rail service and GO Expansion and UPE?

That depends on what you expect it to look like.

On a tph basis, it is such a small increment to overall flowthrough that it will barely move the needle, especially considering that Alto is only one route to the east and likely never more than two or three routes to the west (assuming very far off ideas such as Toronto-NYC, Toronto- Chicago, and maybe two Toronto- London routes)

Assuming the rebuild of signalling thru the depot is successful, and physical changes that overcome the "must wait downstairs and queue up" constraints, Alto could flow through Union just like any GO train route. Dwell times in the depot do not need to exceed 4-5 minutes. If layovers are required for the equipment, do that outside the trainshed. That is very much the reality for HSR elsewhere. Alto does not need to dwell in the depot the way VIA has traditionally done.

But if you are looking for a branded, fully marketable, separate face to the customer from regional transit level amenity - and I would argue for such - then I would argue against even trying, and try to place Alto in a new Annex somehow, Brightline, Eurostar and UPE are examples.

Much as I love Union, the intercity passenger amenities are not first rate, and not much can be done with the existing building especially the lower concourse and the trainshed. I would look for something new. As an increment to project budget, it's affordable; as a city building component, it would sell easily. Above, below, alongside.... it will fit somewhere.

- Paul

 

[Dan416]

I think it has to go through Union. Nowhere else has the connections that Union has. Maybe I'm biased though. If it was something newly built but part of the Union complex, I suppose I could live with it. Though Union Station Bus Terminal is something that I would say is too disconnected. If it was worse than that, I'd call it a failure. It should at least be as connected as USBT and ideally better connected.

 

[reaperexpress]

The global standard procedure is that you would first accommodate the intercity/HSR services and then add as many regional services until the line is full. If the amount of GO trains Metrolinx wants to add to its Corridors exceed the available capacity at Union, then they can start to identify alternative stations to be served downtown (with diverting a few peak-hour train from the Milton Corridor to Summerhill and beyond being a very obvious example).

ALTO does not have such luxury nor should it be pushed to contemplate such alternatives…

I agree - it's more critical for intercity rail to be directly in Union station than for every GO line to be there. Ideally the Federal government would pressure the provincial government to explore options that reduce train volumes at Union, presumably with an offer of co-funding those solutions

For example:
- the UP Express could head via Osgoode and Queen instead (i.e. replace it with an extension of the Ontario Line),
- the Bolton line could head to Summerhill via Dupont (connecting to Ontario Line and Kitchener line at Mount Dennis), and
- some of the peak period Milton trains could head to Summerhill:
- a few of the peak period Lakeshore trains could head to Summerhill via the Canpa sub that Metrolinx already owns, which would be useful for people working in midtown or North York

 

[KhalilHeron]

I agree - it's more critical for intercity rail to be directly in Union station than for every GO line to be there. Ideally the Federal government would pressure the provincial government to explore options that reduce train volumes at Union, presumably with an offer of co-funding those solutions

For example:
- the UP Express could head via Osgoode and Queen instead (i.e. replace it with an extension of the Ontario Line),
- the Bolton line could head to Summerhill via Dupont (connecting to Ontario Line and Kitchener line at Mount Dennis), and
- some of the peak period Milton trains could head to Summerhill:
- a few of the peak period Lakeshore trains could head to Summerhill via the Canpa sub that Metrolinx already owns, which would be useful for people working in midtown or North York

UP not going to Union is arguably worse than HSR not going IMO.

 

[reaperexpress]

UP not going to Union is arguably worse than HSR not going IMO.

HSR itself may well go to Pearson, and the Kitchener Line would still go to Union.

Unlike a high speed rail line, a rapid transit line can intercept transit lines at a variety of different locations across the city. On an HSR line, we'd want to keep the stations to a minimum to maintain the high average speeds, so it's much more critical to stop at a couple locations with a lot of different connections.

The Ontario Line would intercept most of the lines heading downtown:
LSW at Exhibition
Line 2 at Dundas West, possibly Milton line
Kitchener Line at Dundas West, Mount Dennis and Woodbine Racetrack
Line 5 at Mount Dennis
Bolton Line at Mount Dennis
Line 1 University at Osgoode
Line 1 Yonge at Queen
Stouffville Line & LSE at East Harbour
Line 2 at Pape
Line 5 at Don Mills & Eglinton

 

[KhalilHeron]

HSR itself may well go to Pearson, and the Kitchener Line would still go to Union.

The Ontario Line would already intercept most of the lines heading downtown anyway:
LSW at Exhibition
Line 2 at Dundas West, possibly Milton line
Line 5 at Mount Dennis
Bolton Line at Mount Dennis
Line 1 University at Osgoode
Line 1 Yonge at Queen
Stouffville Line & LSE at East Harbour
Line 2 at Pape
Line 5 at Don Mills & Eglinton

And of course Kitchener line at Woodbine, Mount Dennis and Dundas West

The extra time all these extra stations add makes the service less and less competetive as an alternative to driving. Especially for those coming from the east. My parents in scarborough usually take LE and the UP to the airport, because even though its 20-30 mins slower than driving in most traffic, the comfort makes up for it. Im almost certain they'd drive if the trip got 10-20 minutes longer, and it had less comfortable rolling stock built for a high capacity metro instead

 

[reaperexpress]

The extra time all these extra stations add makes the service less and less competetive as an alternative to driving. Especially for those coming from the east. My parents in scarborough usually take LE and the UP to the airport, because even though its 20-30 mins slower than driving in most traffic, the comfort makes up for it. Im almost certain they'd drive if the trip got 10-20 minutes longer, and it had less comfortable rolling stock built for a high capacity metro instead

Metrolinx is already converting the UP Express to a local line regardless. On top of the existing stops at Weston, Mt Dennis and Bloor, it will also stop at Woodbine and St Clair - Old Weston. Meanwhile the Kitchener line will operate express making limited stops from Woodbine to Union.

So the status quo is a travel time around 30-35 min from Union to Pearson. Converting it to an electric metro doesn't necessarily change that average speed, in fact the improved acceleration could potentially reduce it if no additional stops are added. If the Ontario line were extended to Pearson, your parents would transfer at Exhibition and it would take about the same time as the current Metrolinx plan (i.e. 5 minutes slower than current).

Comfort is definitely a factor that affects ridership, but so are other things like ticket price, which would almost certainly be lower on the subway than the UP Express, and frequency, which would definitely be higher as a subway.

 

[KhalilHeron]

The status quo is that UP Express will be converted to a local line regardless. So it will have a travel time around 30-35 min regardless. Converting it to an electric metro doesn't necessarily change that average speed. If the Ontario line were extended to Pearson, your parents would transfer at Exhibition and it would take about the same time as the status quo (i.e. 5 minutes slower than current).

Your map still has 4 more stations along that stretch from exhibition to pearson than are planned for the up. Along you're routing they'd stop at 15 stations along the way to pearson instead of 10 with the UP stopping at Woodbine and St clair.
I also dont think the UP should only be a local service but thats another issue entirely

 

[McGillicuddy]

My sense is that most GO passengers inbound to Union are either going to a destination within walking distance of Union Station, or are connecting onward to another GO service.

Many of these passengers may not accept being detoured to Summerhill or Dupont. (Or the Ontario Line.)

It is true that these patterns are inertial: that people take the GO Train because Union is close to their work, and moving the service elsewhere would therefore attract people who work close to wherever "elsewhere" happens to be.

But neither Summerhill nor Dupont are exactly hotspots for employment. Certainly it's nothing compared to what Union's got within walking distance.

 

[reaperexpress]

Your map still has 4 more stations along that stretch from exhibition to pearson than are planned for the up. Along you're routing they'd stop at 15 stations along the way to pearson instead of 10 with the UP stopping at Woodbine and St clair.
I also dont think the UP should only be a local service but thats another issue entirely

There is no need to add stations when you convert from one type of train to another. If they want to keep the same stations they can do that.

Moving the transfer point between UP and Lakeshore from Union to Exhibition doesn't increase travel times from Lakeshore to the airport. In fact given the long transfer times at Union there's a good chance it could actually reduce them.

 

[reaperexpress]

My sense is that most GO passengers inbound to Union are either going to a destination within walking distance of Union Station, or are connecting onward to another GO service.

Many of these passengers may not accept being detoured to Summerhill or Dupont. (Or the Ontario Line.)

Nobody is being detoured unless they want to be, because there are still trains going to Union that they can take. My point is that we can send GO trains to Union AND other terminals, so people who aren't heading specifically to Union Station have other options. Like someone heading from Port Credit to North York, who would transfer at Union in the current plan, but could just as easily transfer at Summerhill. Most of the trains from Port Credit would still go to Union so the only effect on those people would be a slight reduction in frequency.