GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

[Krypto98]

Well, yes and no.

Yes access to the south platform does interfere with the southernmost main track, but in practice there's not much reason for CN to ever use that track anyway, since it doesn't lead to the York Subdivision, and there are two other tracks to the north which do.

But the track configuration certainly does cause unnecessary conflict between eastbound and westbound GO trains, since there's only one track to the south of the main CN pair. It's quite a frustrating situation considering how Bramalea is a key turnback point for counter-peak service.

Here's a diagram I made a couple years ago showing the existing layout and its primary track users (not necessarily the track owners), as well as the modest change it would take to resolve the conflicts for counter-peak trains.

Here's the 2018 track layout in real life, with tracks highlighted:
View attachment 291275

I've actually yet to see a CN train on the south track in the 5+ years I've used bramalea. Even on weekends they only use the 2 north tracks.

Also supposedly on the Malton construction page it says plans are in the works for the north platform to be widened so trains can stop on the north side.

 

[drum118]

Its stuff like this that make me worried about GO RER, cant even build a simple connection track.

Don't blame GO/ML for lack of tracks since they don't own the rail corridor in the first place. Since CN own the rail corridor, they call the shot as to when tracks will be built since their own system comes first and having the manpower to do it.

Have seen a CN train on the south side at Bramalea this year as a local and then go south on ML tracks.

 

[crs1026]

Have seen a CN train on the south side at Bramalea this year as a local and then go south on ML tracks.

There are several local runs possible, one is the transfer that takes the Weston Sub to CP at Lambton. A second piece of work is to switch the industries along the Weston Sub in the Rexdale-Malton area, another is to work the Bramalea-Brampton industries, The issue for GO at Bramalea is that when they need to switch, they will need either the southmost or northmost main line for long enough to block through movements. The Weston Sub has much more secondary trackage, so the switching is less problemmatic on that stretch.

- Paul

 

[Allandale25]

This could go under GO Construction, but I'll put it here since I'm going to refer to the Bowmanville Extension. I wonder if the drawing below from PDF page 40 here provides some insight for what may happen at the Oshawa Station for the Bowmanville Extension. Source: https://www.metrolinxengage.com/en/content/new-track-facilities-environmental-project-report

Dashed lined for the Extension added below. Not sure if a second track would extend under the new Oshawa Station platform bridge (picture here looking west towards the existing GO tracks).

 

[Northern Light]

This could go under GO Construction, but I'll put it here since I'm going to refer to the Bowmanville Extension. I wonder if the drawing below from PDF page 40 here provides some insight for what may happen at the Oshawa Station for the Bowmanville Extension. Source: https://www.metrolinxengage.com/en/content/new-track-facilities-environmental-project-report

View attachment 291673

Dashed lined for the Extension added below. Not sure if a second track would extend under the new Oshawa Station platform bridge (picture here looking west towards the existing GO tracks).

View attachment 291674

In respect of the above; I wonder about track time now that GM is set to fully reopen its Oshawa Plant.

 

[Allandale25]

^ Good question. I wonder if CP will try to regain GM as a customer and if GM wants to see some competitive pricing from CN and CP.

Even if CP reuses their bridge, I wonder if GO will still try to use it because it has other benefits compared to the 2011 or so plan where a new track would have gone through the parking lot and over the 401. Apparently in that version it would have required a new grade separation for the CP mainline for one of the roads.

 

[crs1026]

^ I would bet CP will want to retain access in hopes of attracting GM's business.

The changes at Oshawa station aren't an impediment to that. The proposed change merely moves the existing platforms to fit under the new station passenger bridge. They don't preclude anything related to Bowmanville - the curvature of the line GO will have to construct begins to the east and isn't affected. While GO would have to share the use of the bridges with CP, the big issue is switching rather than track and time. There's still some headroom available at the north end of CP's yard. I wonder how CP would feel about switching from the south end - it's on a curve, and crosses Stevenson Road, but it's a thought.

Worst case, ML might have to double the bridge across the 401. That's not cheap, but technically it's a fairly simple solution.

- Paul

 

[generalcanada]

This could go under GO Construction, but I'll put it here since I'm going to refer to the Bowmanville Extension. I wonder if the drawing below from PDF page 40 here provides some insight for what may happen at the Oshawa Station for the Bowmanville Extension. Source: https://www.metrolinxengage.com/en/content/new-track-facilities-environmental-project-report

View attachment 291673

Dashed lined for the Extension added below. Not sure if a second track would extend under the new Oshawa Station platform bridge (picture here looking west towards the existing GO tracks).

View attachment 291674

Did you add the dashed line yourself? Ok that confused me for a bit.

What you are seeing here is a third track and 2nd platform being built out to Oshawa simply for being able to roll trains out of the whitby maintenance facility into oshawa easier and start trains there.

Granted the bowmanville extension will be changing up the Oshawa go station in 5 years, but again that project is unrelated and changes will be made then.

This project is completely separate form the bowmanville extension. There is litterally no relation

I know this because the peeps at metrolinx at the TPAP meeting in stage 1 back in february faced so many questions about it. When the reason they were there was for that TPAP.

 

[Allandale25]

^ Yes, I did add the dashed line. Sorry, thought I made that clear.

Totally get that the project is separate from the Bowmanville Extension, but is it safe to assume they've designed the platform/track for this TPAP in a way to make it easy to do the Extension? Given it's now been over a year and a half or more since the CP GM spur route was mentioned (at the May 2019 Durham townhall) I assume that there was some alignment.

The changes at Oshawa station aren't an impediment to that. The proposed change merely moves the existing platforms to fit under the new station passenger bridge. T

- Paul

Just for clarification re "The proposed change merely moves the existing platforms to fit under the new station passenger bridge" - from the above track plan, it doesn't look like to me any of the existing platforms need to change? It looks like they are only adding a new platform to the north.

 

[crs1026]

Just for clarification re "The proposed change merely moves the existing platforms to fit under the new station passenger bridge" - from the above track plan, it doesn't look like to me any of the existing platforms need to change? It looks like they are only adding a new platform to the north.

That's a good point. I took another look at the drawings. My first thought was that once a track is extended eastwards, all track access would have to be from the bridge.... but it does look like the new track is a stub track, which effectively shifts the two stub tracks northwards, so they can be accessed at grade. It would be the southmost existing stub track that is extended, and that wouldn't block at grade access to the other two.

- Paul

 

[generalcanada]

^ Yes, I did add the dashed line. Sorry, thought I made that clear.

Totally get that the project is separate from the Bowmanville Extension, but is it safe to assume they've designed the platform/track for this TPAP in a way to make it easy to do the Extension? Given it's now been over a year and a half or more since the CP GM spur route was mentioned (at the May 2019 Durham townhall) I assume that there was some alignment.



Just for clarification re "The proposed change merely moves the existing platforms to fit under the new station passenger bridge" - from the above track plan, it doesn't look like to me any of the existing platforms need to change? It looks like they are only adding a new platform to the north.

remember it was 2019 that metrolinx/transpo minister said they were taking another look at it.
it litterally was like 2 weeks before the tpap open houses in February that the option for the "GM spur" was selected and announced

Im telling you that there is no way for theese plans to have consideration for the bowmanville extension.

The picture you are looking at is the exact same that was announced at the start of this year

With that said....is it possible that it can be extended based off those pictures? probably, but thats a question for 2025 when the detailed planning and design will start...and that is ambitious as it is

 

[Allandale25]

^ the date on the plan says October 2020. The Bowmanville Extension IBC with the GM spur as the preferred option came out in February 2020. So I'm going to assume/speculate that the team's did some coordination, but given the space/passenger bridge created with the new Oshawa GO station, it doesn't appear to be that difficult to extend a track east for the extension. Don't mind at all if someone disagrees with my speculation/assumption on this.

 

[crs1026]

I just had to poke at the Oshawa platform layout a bit more. The northmost platform at present is a siding track connected to the Kingston Sub, and accessible from the north. No bridge is needed at the moment, but if a GO Bowmanville track is extended towards Bowmanville, that bridge will need a new section added (it's likely roughed in already) and the only access to VIA will be by going up and over.

Seems unlikely that the current south GO track could be bent up and through the gap on the north side of the existing bridge stairway, due to curvature. So it is indeed a puzzle as to GO's intention. Given that the latest plan is for 2WAD all the way to Bowmanville, one would expect GO to want two tracks through the depot. The change in the layout of the stub tracks could be interim, I suppose.

- Paul

 

[generalcanada]

^ the date on the plan says October 2020. The Bowmanville Extension IBC with the GM spur as the preferred option came out in February 2020. So I'm going to assume/speculate that the team's did some coordination, but given the space/passenger bridge created with the new Oshawa GO station, it doesn't appear to be that difficult to extend a track east for the extension. Don't mind at all if someone disagrees with my speculation/assumption on this.

and that right there is what saying.

Yes, that roll plan is part of the stage 3 presentation of the tpap back in October. thats correct.

But what im saying is that those plans existed at least since February not even 2 weeks after the GM spur announcement was made. Therefore It is impossible to have it taken into account considering the fact that the tpap plans most definitely had some lead up time to it

Heres the roll plan from february: https://www.metrolinxengage.com/sites/default/files/lse_roll_plan_combined.pdf

Heres the roll plan from the Round 3 consultation open house: https://www.metrolinxengage.com/sites/default/files/lse_roll_plan_combined.pdf

Those tracks exist in both presentations

Also theres this:

With that said, is it easier to extend that track in the future? possibly, but again thats a completely different conversation for 5 years from now

 

[Allandale25]

^ I'm not even sure what we're debating anymore in terms of timing or what point your trying to make. That said, I'll correct my record above. It was in fact May 2019 is when Metrolinx said there were four options for the Bowmanville Extension. It wasn't until December 2019 at a townhall they said they reached an agreement with CP Rail for the option to use the GM Spur bridge over the 401, which was an indication on which of the four options they were going with. Video here timemarked to the specific comment:

The IBC then came out in February 2020 confirming the option chosen.

So, a few factors. The new GO/VIA station was designed to allow for an extension and the bridge piece to be added as @crs1026 mentioned above. That was well before the "four option" discussion or the TPAP. I'm just saying whatever team worked on the Bowmanville Extension and the TPAP (may have even been the same team), would have be aware of future options for the extension. In my view, it looks like a side benefit of the TPAP design for Oshawa is that it could benefit/assist with the Bowmanville Extension. Great.

The drawings you provided from the past are helpful for context, the most recent drawings I posted that became public in the last few days provide a more zoomed in view, which is great. The next step for the Bowmanville Extension, assuming funding continues for it, is more detailed design and public drawings, which I assume we will see well before five years from now.

I just checked the GO Bowmanville Extension document page and there was a September 2020 notice that investigation work is happening.

"What Work is Taking Place?
Along the CP-owned corridor there will be geo-technical investigative work underway beginning in September. This work is to collect information for the future Bowmanville Extension Project between Oshawa GO Station and Regional Road #57 in Bowmanville. The geo-technical work is necessary preliminary works in advance of Bowmanville Expansion construction. This work will be ongoing for a few months."

http://www.metrolinx.com/en/greaterregion/projects/docs/bowmanville-expansion/Aug-12-2020_BowmanvilleExt-geotech-construction-notice-FINAL.pdf

In looking at the map provided and how close the Thornton's Corner East Station is to the existing Oshawa Station, maybe the Bowmanville Extension trains won't stop at Oshawa and the trains will just pass by the new platform on the north side. I haven't looked at the IBC lately to remember if it has any service details for the GM spur option.

So one would hope there would be more details in 2021 on the Bowmanville Extension progress. Given the political pressure in Durham for the Extension, I don't think it will take five years to get more news or have a conversation about any changes/track expansion at the Oshawa GO Station.