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GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

TransitBart said:
Not quite. The UPX trains run without any impedance from at grade traffic.
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The corridor is also exempted from the electrification EA. Although that's not a capital example I'd assume it makes it somewhat easier for this section. The West Toronto Grade Separation was a big hurdle. Kind of surprising they didn't roll in the 401 tunnel at the same time.
 
Allandale25 said:
Metrolinx to the Minister's office: we've tried negotiating with CN. Here's what we got. Should we keep trying?
MO: no what we've got is fine for now.

Ultimately, the Minister's office should have been aware at the time what the commitment was or should have asked if the didn't know. If they didn't ask and now peolple rightfully are concerned, it comes down to Ministerial accountability.
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There may be multiple levels to this accountability vaccuum:

ML to MO: CN says we can have a deal, but the price has to be $X
MO: Yipes. That ain't on. Even our cabinet doesn't have enough drunken sailors for that.
ML: What can we do?
MO: Let me call my counterparts in the Federal Minister's Office and get some pressure on CN to come down a bit

FMO: Ontario is calling again. They want us to lean on CN to lower the price on their Bypass idea.
FM: Just don't return their calls

- Paul
 
Allandale25 said:
1) Even if the Province (who directs Metrolinx what to spend on, so it's better to refer to the Province) wanted to spend the amount you've quoted, this is the biggest challenge: "In discussions held earlier this year, senior CN staff indicated to senior Regional representatives that CN was also opposed to any connection between the CP/Milton rail line and the CN-York mainline." See here.

2) Another challenge.

3) The Federal government, who in theory could force this to happen in addition to financially contributing, has given no indication they are interested.

4) The federal government initiated the efforts to build UP Express. When the private sector operator bailed the Province directed Metrolinx to take it over. So, if you're mad at decisions made, vote accordingly.

5) There is more discussion on this in the Missing Link/Bypass thread.
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Allandale25 said:
Maybe in 2018 or 2019 when the EA for the Bypass is done and a final cost is known, we'll get a sense. Maybe the Province will wait until then for the Kitchener Line for Plan B. For the Milton Line, guess we'll have to continue to wait to see what happens. Unless CP is willing to accept the grade separation near the Humber River and the Province commits to funding. Or, another party promises and then becomes more effective negotiators that's able to get CP and CN to agree to something previous governments haven't been able to.
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crs1026 said:
I'm wondering where you got only $200M?

The investment made in GTS for upgrades to the Georgetown Corridor, excluding UPX, was reported as $875M. According to the Province, UPX was an additional $459M - "delivered on time, on budget" by their account.

The thing that we are just bitterly returning to is that the $875M got us very little additional service on this line, certainly nothing like what was promised. That amount is on top of what was invested in 2003-2005 to triple track parts of the Halton Sub, double track others, and build an additional bridge track (with piers for a third track) over the Credit River. (I'm still hunting for what that might have cost)

Somehow all that money was invested without getting a binding and enforceable commitment from CN supporting further service, beyond the meagre additions since the Mount Pleasant triple tracking opened in February 2005. Metrolinx has yet to answer for how that (didn't) happen.

An interesting summary of all the to-ing and fro-ing by GO on this line prior to kicking off the GTS Project can be found in this 2009 report to Brampton City Council. There was a decade of delay before GTS. And, just to remind all, the EA for Doubletracking from Georgetown to Kitchener was completed eight years ago, in 2009.

But yeah, that's where we are. I do see the RER Business Case document lays out a number of Plan B options for the Bramalea-Georgetown portion, which were developed before the bypass was seriously tabled. I would guess that these bound the amount that CN can ask for the bypass. I am still hopeful that there is a negotiation proceeding with a result somewhere in between Plan A and these Plan B options.

- Paul
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Was going to typr 1,200m, my apologies. My thing is however, CP has never indicated they were against the humber river grade seperation, they had issues with the missing link. For 1.2 billion we could have modernized the Brampton and started work on Milton already. This comes down to the province. It's clear York Region has more sway otherwise they would not be rushing with Barrie and Stouffville right now. Del Duca has to go.
 
denfromoakvillemilton said:
Was going to typr 1,200m, my apologies. My thing is however, CP has never indicated they were against the humber river grade seperation, they had issues with the missing link. For 1.2 billion we could have modernized the Brampton and started work on Milton already. This comes down to the province. It's clear York Region has more sway otherwise they would not be rushing with Barrie and Stouffville right now. Del Duca has to go.
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They may not have publicly indicated they have an issue with the grade separation need or location, but we don't know what they've told the Province privately. Also, that's just one location. The width of the ROW is still owned by CP Rail. Also, I'd imagine they'd have concerns about Streetville and the yard tracks they have their, although I suppose it's only used for OBRY (happy to be corrected).
 
denfromoakvillemilton said:
Was going to typr 1,200m, my apologies. My thing is however, CP has never indicated they were against the humber river grade seperation, they had issues with the missing link. For 1.2 billion we could have modernized the Brampton and started work on Milton already. This comes down to the province. It's clear York Region has more sway otherwise they would not be rushing with Barrie and Stouffville right now. Del Duca has to go.
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York Region has always had more sway. They got money to build fancy rapidways, yet YRT ridership is stagnant. Many senior GO Transit managers and board members and chairs hailed from York Region. Brampton in particular has long been neglected by GO proportionate to the size of the municipality (case in point: awful GO train-bus service to Union Station that persisted until 2008). It did not even have representation on the early GTTA Board; Peel Region's representative was Hazel McCallion.
 
ShonTron said:
York Region has always had more sway. They got money to build fancy rapidways, yet YRT ridership is stagnant. Many senior GO Transit managers and board members and chairs hailed from York Region. Brampton in particular has long been neglected by GO proportionate to the size of the municipality (case in point: awful GO train-bus service to Union Station that persisted until 2008). It did not even have representation on the early GTTA Board; Peel Region's representative was Hazel McCallion.
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Recently Brampton, Mississauga, KW, Hamilton, York and Durham have all received RT funding (and GO expansions). So all of the GTA but Toronto. Why? They all have listened to the rules set by the Province. One of the key constraints is a P3 (now Infrastructure Bank) mechanism.

Toronto refuses to listen to the hand that feeds them on infrastructure build. So of course they will not get any funding. They will only get ones that Metrolinx will control (since City Hall won't play by the rules).
 
muller877 said:
Recently Brampton, Mississauga, KW, Hamilton, York and Durham have all received RT funding (and GO expansions). So all of the GTA but Toronto. Why? They all have listened to the rules set by the Province. One of the key constraints is a P3 (now Infrastructure Bank) mechanism.

Toronto refuses to listen to the hand that feeds them on infrastructure build. So of course they will not get any funding. They will only get ones that Metrolinx will control (since City Hall won't play by the rules).
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Sorry, I just want to understand what you are saying....,you seem to be saying that all munis and regions in the region have received rapid transit funding with the only exception being Toronto....is that right?
 
Allandale25 said:
They may not have publicly indicated they have an issue with the grade separation need or location, but we don't know what they've told the Province privately. Also, that's just one location. The width of the ROW is still owned by CP Rail. Also, I'd imagine they'd have concerns about Streetville and the yard tracks they have their, although I suppose it's only used for OBRY (happy to be corrected).
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Streetsville is mostly OBRY, I should think that would be a minor issue. The issue is the province always has an excuse ready. Look at Brampton. This is an issues that could be solved for 400 or 500m yet they refuse. Richmond Hill needs the service the least but even the cost of the doncaster diamond repairs will cost less then DRL long. There is no real reason to vote for these guys if they are not going to do what they say their going to do.
ShonTron said:
York Region has always had more sway. They got money to build fancy rapidways, yet YRT ridership is stagnant. Many senior GO Transit managers and board members and chairs hailed from York Region. Brampton in particular has long been neglected by GO proportionate to the size of the municipality (case in point: awful GO train-bus service to Union Station that persisted until 2008). It did not even have representation on the early GTTA Board; Peel Region's representative was Hazel McCallion.
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And look at YRT local, its awful. I think Brampton, or atleast officials there, need to make this an election issue.
 
denfromoakvillemilton said:
Streetsville is mostly OBRY, I should think that would be a minor issue. The issue is the province always has an excuse ready. Look at Brampton. This is an issues that could be solved for 400 or 500m yet they refuse. Richmond Hill needs the service the least but even the cost of the doncaster diamond repairs will cost less then DRL long. There is no real reason to vote for these guys if they are not going to do what they say their going to do.
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There's been a lot of writing on the CN-Province topic as it relates to Brampton and Bramalea station so I won't repeat it. Either CN has no interest in discussing the issue and allowing the track you mentioned until the Bypass, or they are demanding too high of a price for the Province. Voters of course get to judge. If they elect a different government than the present one, we'll get an experiment on if a different group of negotiators sitting across the table from CN can do anything differently.
 
Allandale25 said:
There's been a lot of writing on the CN-Province topic as it relates to Brampton and Bramalea station so I won't repeat it. Either CN has no interest in discussing the issue and allowing the track you mentioned until the Bypass, or they are demanding too high of a price for the Province. Voters of course get to judge. If they elect a different government than the present one, we'll get an experiment on if a different group of negotiators sitting across the table from CN can do anything differently.
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How is the public supposed to measure/know?

If, for example, CN said "yeah, you can get the trains into Bramalea.....you pay the cost of any track work and pay us $50MM" how is the public supposed to judge if that is reasonable? Surely any judgement on the government of the day should be with full information.....

....you wanted rails service
....we negotiated with CN
.....they unreasonably said public cost for 100% of capital plus $50MM to them (again I made that bit up for example)
.....we thought that was too much to pay to just achieve hourly evening and weekend service to only Bramalea
.....we said no and focused, instead, on trying to build that bypass
......so your evening and weekend service will have to wait until 2030 - 2050
.....we trust that you will agree with us on this and vote for us in 2018 as we work to solve all your problems :)

As it sits now....we have no idea what the hold up is ....and what would solve it.
 
TOareaFan said:
As it sits now....we have no idea what the hold up is ....and what would solve it.
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The Minister's Direction Letter to ML dated Nov 23 2016 is pretty explicit about all this. Which begs the question: Does anyone publicly follow up regarding the direction letter, to document what got done and what didn't? Do Ministers ever hold anyones' feet to the fire about this? Or are these empty words whose only purpose is to make us go back to sleep and believe that all is well?

In a perfect world, some reporter would take it apart and analyse what got done and what didn't. Of course, in a really perfect world, the Minister would do that first and issue a public statement about it. There's always hope that Brown's party would do this.... but then, they would have to take a position on what parts they support and what parts they would do differently. I see no signs of any of this.

- Paul
 
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