GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

[Allandale25]

If the call is for more information, of course I support that. If voters are frustrated because of a lack of information and the Province is unwilling to provide more, or has decided not to risk providing more and the party in government goes on to lose the next election then I agree that they are ultimately responsible for their fate. That's politics. That's life. All parties are susceptible to it. The opposition could claim they'll do a better job and then once in government do better, the same, or worse on this matter. Hard to say until it happens.

I'm not suggesting I agree with the lack of information. I'm just not sure if there is anything else that the Province can do at this point. Maybe they can and are unwilling or not component enough to do. Maybe CN has told them that these are commercially-sensitive discussions and not to talk through the public channels. Maybe the reality is nothing will change until the Bypass is running and the part in government doesn't want to break the bad news.

I agree that we don't know the full scope. That's why I wrote in my earlier response "voters get to judge" and the two possibilities I mentioned. I'm not saying it's right, good, or helpful. I'm just suggesting that there are several options for what's happening right now.

How is the public supposed to measure/know?

If, for example, CN said "yeah, you can get the trains into Bramalea.....you pay the cost of any track work and pay us $50MM" how is the public supposed to judge if that is reasonable? Surely any judgement on the government of the day should be with full information.....

....you wanted rails service
....we negotiated with CN
.....they unreasonably said public cost for 100% of capital plus $50MM to them (again I made that bit up for example)
.....we thought that was too much to pay to just achieve hourly evening and weekend service to only Bramalea
.....we said no and focused, instead, on trying to build that bypass
......so your evening and weekend service will have to wait until 2030 - 2050
.....we trust that you will agree with us on this and vote for us in 2018 as we work to solve all your problems

As it sits now....we have no idea what the hold up is ....and what would solve it.

 

[TOareaFan]

The Minister's Direction Letter to ML dated Nov 23 2016 is pretty explicit about all this. Which begs the question: Does anyone publicly follow up regarding the direction letter, to document what got done and what didn't? Do Ministers ever hold anyones' feet to the fire about this? Or are these empty words whose only purpose is to make us go back to sleep and believe that all is well?

In a perfect world, some reporter would take it apart and analyse what got done and what didn't. Of course, in a really perfect world, the Minister would do that first and issue a public statement about it. There's always hope that Brown's party would do this.... but then, they would have to take a position on what parts they support and what parts they would do differently. I see no signs of any of this.

- Paul

The only mention I see is :

Working with CN Rail under the agreement-in-principle to advance work for a proposed new freight by-pass in order to allow for increased GO rail service to Kitchener, including:

• Initiating an environmental assessment process and other technical studies to support the proposed new corridor.
• Progressing discussions towards a final agreement with CN Rail to enable enhanced GO rail service between Toronto and Kitchener.
• Working with MTO to develop a comprehensive community engagement strategy for the proposed new freight by-pass.

Which would suggest there is to be no ongoing discussion about getting trains into Bramalea under the current rail environment and to just focus on the bypass......which takes us back to not knowing why or when they gave up on their 2016 budget promise to have evening and weekend service running by March 31, 2017.

 

[crs1026]

I would think that would fall under

• Continuing to implement short-term GO rail service improvements to show progress towards full GO RER; and

• Implementing a comprehensive community engagement strategy as part of GO RER, GO rail service expansions and extensions to Kitchener, Niagara and Bowmanville, and regional rapid transit projects, to ensure early and easy access to information, and the ability for the public and stakeholder groups to stay informed and provide feedback.
  • This strategy should reflect the unique needs of each municipality, as well as the various stages of development, funding levels, approvals and partnerships underway.

• Ensuring transparency to the public and GO users in relation to the progress of GO RER and light rail transit (LRT) projects by supporting the Government's development of web-based reporting on the status of each project including approvals, planning and construction.

Can't say I have seen too much transparent disclosure about any of this. And AMA's tweets about rescued raccoons and the like sure don't come close to web-based reporting.

Over to you, voters.

- Paul

 

[Allandale25]

The only mention I see is :

Working with CN Rail under the agreement-in-principle to advance work for a proposed new freight by-pass in order to allow for increased GO rail service to Kitchener, including:

• Initiating an environmental assessment process and other technical studies to support the proposed new corridor.
• Progressing discussions towards a final agreement with CN Rail to enable enhanced GO rail service between Toronto and Kitchener.
• Working with MTO to develop a comprehensive community engagement strategy for the proposed new freight by-pass.

Which would suggest there is to be no ongoing discussion about getting trains into Bramalea under the current rail environment and to just focus on the bypass......which takes us back to not knowing why or when they gave up on their 2016 budget promise to have evening and weekend service running by March 31, 2017.

I wouldn't be surprised if it was 'right hand doesn't know what the left is doing'.

Right - Finance Minister's Office: we need something in the budget to talk about more GO service for Brampton!
Left - Transportation Minister's Office: here you go.
Right - Finance Minister's Office: thanks!
Left - Transportation Minister's Office: ummm....not all the public budget websites had the correct information we sent.
Left - Finance Minister's Office: too late. Hopefully no one will notice.

Some voters/UTers: we've noticed. They broke a promise. We'll hold them accountable in 2018.

At the end of the day, the government in power is responsible for what they put out there or don't put out there and have to live with the consequences.

 

[TOareaFan]

I wouldn't be surprised if it was 'right hand doesn't know what the left is doing'.

Right - Finance Minister's Office: we need something in the budget to talk about more GO service for Brampton!
Left - Transportation Minister's Office: here you go.
Right - Finance Minister's Office: thanks!
Left - Transportation Minister's Office: ummm....not all the public budget websites had the correct information we sent.
Left - Finance Minister's Office: too late. Hopefully no one will notice.

Some voters/UTers: we've noticed. They broke a promise. We'll hold them accountable in 2018.

At the end of the day, the government in power is responsible for what they put out there or don't put out there and have to live with the consequences.

my point was much simpler than that.....any promise of evening and weekend service in 2017 (even if it was subject to negotiations with CN) had to be prior to the bypass because there is no way ever the bypass could have been built by then......so in the context of the quote above, it seems whatever they meant in the budget of 2016 has changed and they are now tying all future service increase to the bypass.

In my world, they owe their employers (the taxpayers of Ontario) and explanation of how and why they moved from "A" (we will get limited evening and weekend service to Brampton by 2017 if CN co-operates) to "B" (all discussion of increased service is now tied to successfully negotiating a big project that can't be built until 2030 - 2050).

Something changed....but they get to stay silent on it....that is what is really wrong here.

 

[Allandale25]

my point was much simpler than that.....any promise of evening and weekend service in 2017 (even if it was subject to negotiations with CN) had to be prior to the bypass because there is no way ever the bypass could have been built by then......so in the context of the quote above, it seems whatever they meant in the budget of 2016 has changed and they are now tying all future service increase to the bypass.

In my world, they owe their employers (the taxpayers of Ontario) and explanation of how and why they moved from "A" (we will get limited evening and weekend service to Brampton by 2017 if CN co-operates) to "B" (all discussion of increased service is now tied to successfully negotiating a big project that can't be built until 2030 - 2050).

Something changed....but they get to stay silent on it....that is what is really wrong here.

I have seen a few PC and NDP MPPs from KW talk in the media about previous promises made by the former Minister of Transportation for the Kitchener Line. I haven't seen them specifically raise the 2017 issue but they have access to the same budget documents and miscommunication the rest of us do. So, for the "get" part, there is still the opportunity for the media, local Councillors, and the opposition to mention it if they want.

 

[crs1026]

Something changed....but they get to stay silent on it....that is what is really wrong here.

Strictly my own cynical conspiracy theory - but - if you go back to the 2006-2009 period when the last set of capital improvements were made up that way, GO was only talking about adding a small number of peak period trains. The number of trains specified in the GTS EA really didn't amount to weekend and evening service, let alone the expanded 2WAD that RER implies.
It wouldn't surprise me if CN actually asked, "These improvements will only mean you want X trains, right?"
And some GO or provincial official responded (in writing, or email) "Oh, absolutely, that's all we need" - perhaps forgetting to add "at the moment, but there will be more eventually"
But then, the promise expanded...and now there is some written evidence that CN is relying on to say, hey, we were hoodwinked.

Just my suspicious mind playing tricks, but there you have it.

- Paul

 

[Allandale25]

Strictly my own cynical conspiracy theory - but - if you go back to the 2006-2009 period when the last set of capital improvements were made up that way, GO was only talking about adding a small number of peak period trains. The number of trains specified in the GTS EA really didn't amount to weekend and evening service, let alone the expanded 2WAD that RER implies.
It wouldn't surprise me if CN actually asked, "These improvements will only mean you want X trains, right?"
And some GO or provincial official responded (in writing, or email) "Oh, absolutely, that's all we need" - perhaps forgetting to add "at the moment, but there will be more eventually"
But then, the promise expanded...and now there is some written evidence that CN is relying on to say, hey, we were hoodwinked.

Just my suspicious mind playing tricks, but there you have it.

- Paul

And I'll add onto "But then", with, in my opinion, the that was probably the point where the party in government started to panic a little and realize they needed to promise more and do more because of the growth and demands by commuters. The bigger and long-term permanent solution is really only being talked about now and acted on. It's big and complex and will take years to build. And, there seems to be a sense by some here that until the Bypass is built, no further improvements will come.

 

[TOareaFan]

And, there seems to be a sense by some here that until the Bypass is built, no further improvements will come.

Isn't that "sense by some" built on the fact that every time you ask about expanded service for evenings and weekends....questions about "when" "how many" "2016 budget promise"....the governments of the day (municipal and provincial) answer with some vague mention of a "agreement in principle" about sitting down to negotiate a bypass? All inquiries and public comment about future service are totally bypass focussed.....not one (any more....for about the last year or so) even includes words like "in the meantime we will continue to look for ways to add additional service where feasible".......the sense that some of us have that nothing will happen until the bypass is built seems to be based on some sort of hint the people in power are sending out.

 

[crs1026]

.......the sense that some of us have that nothing will happen until the bypass is built seems to be based on some sort of hint the people in power are sending out.

That seems to be the case. Although, declining to add trains now may still just be a short term negotiating tactic by CN (who may well see a deal in their future) to add some leverage to the Province's apparent need for speed. And the Province may see merit in not tainting the negotiations by complaining publicly about that, even if it's a nasty hardball tactic that holds the affected ridership base hostage.

If the potential deal looks to be favourable, CN only has until the writ to extract the best possible price and get the deal signed - the incoming party will most likely kybosh the whole initiative. We may be frustrated at the delay, but we won't have to wait much longer to find out.

- Paul

 

[Allandale25]

Isn't that "sense by some" built on the fact that every time you ask about expanded service for evenings and weekends....questions about "when" "how many" "2016 budget promise"....the governments of the day (municipal and provincial) answer with some vague mention of a "agreement in principle" about sitting down to negotiate a bypass?

As I posted in the Bypass thread here, the next "check in" time would probably be early 2018 to see if the "Induction Study" is done (a comment on the video said it'd be done by December) or can be made public and when the public EA process will start. There hasn't been any public news since the stuff I posted in the Bypass thread (IE when GO presented at the September Waterloo Region Council meeting).

All inquiries and public comment about future service are totally bypass focussed.....not one (any more....for about the last year or so) even includes words like "in the meantime we will continue to look for ways to add additional service where feasible".......the sense that some of us have that nothing will happen until the bypass is built seems to be based on some sort of hint the people in power are sending out.

If I was giving advice to anyone in government at any level, I'd certainly encourage them to provide that clarification and the specifics on the situation. It's better to get the 'hard news' out of the way instead of running the risk this will come up later or during the heat of a campaign. Maybe they've made a calculation that the politically easy thing to do is say nothing.

 

[crs1026]

It's possible (likely?) that Ontario is saying to CN: "Look, you know the bypass is coming. That will assure your long-term concerns about GO interfering with your freight trains. In the meanwhile, surely we could slip a few evening and weekend trains in? At your current traffic level, the pinch point can't be that painful....it's just for a little while, honest, and then the bypass will make everything OK."

If you were CN - would you fall for that? From these guys? The only possible response I could see from CN is, what if you back out on the bypass? What if the next government won't see it through? Will you cancel those extra trains?

If I were CN, the next words out of my mouth would be "Of course, if you want to sign a $100M plus penalty clause, binding on all future governments, should anyone cancel the bypass.......You know, the kind of wording you gave to the gas plant fellas about what would happen if you had to cancel their projects or move them to some other location......."

For all I dislike Wynne, I don't think she would go down that path again.

- Paul

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

There's been a lot of writing on the CN-Province topic as it relates to Brampton and Bramalea station so I won't repeat it. Either CN has no interest in discussing the issue and allowing the track you mentioned until the Bypass, or they are demanding too high of a price for the Province. Voters of course get to judge. If they elect a different government than the present one, we'll get an experiment on if a different group of negotiators sitting across the table from CN can do anything differently.

I agree. We should stay tuned. But this needs to become an election issue.

 

[Allandale25]

Some ridership numbers for the GO seasonal trips to Niagara in this article.

Station plan for Grimsby below from this article.

 

[Jag202]

As a heads up, memo's were released yesterday indicating that hourly midday train service will be starting on the Barrie Line in January to East Gwilimbury.
The question now is if they will be maintaining half hourly headways supplemented by the bus fleet, or if we will be adopting the same path that the stouffville line took.