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GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

I like this comment and wholeheartedly agree with its plausibility. What I’m saying is that there should be a solution that gets Go at least as far as Bramalea if not Mount Pleasant evenings and weekends with hourly service that wouldn’t step on CN’s toes as far as operating their business and serving the customers they have along the stretch in question. At least in the short term. Kitchener service, electrification and RER are a whole other ballgame for sure but I just can’t believe there’s nothing to be done about evenings/weekends to start
it would be nice if the two sides could actually state what the issue is in that regard. What (if anything) is CN asking for to allow that.....if there is a path to that what is preventing ML from giving in on that?

Or, perhaps, CN has sussed out that having now sold all the bits of the corridor that they don't need.....and knowing that even after pocketing that money GO can't get trains evenings and weekends to the 3 busiest stations in the corridor....that their negotiating position with regards to the bypass is stengthened by that situation.
 
I just think it's a lot more difficult than some people realize to add more service (IE more than just laying down tracks) without a willing private sector owner, unless the federal government brings down the hammer with the powers they have.

This is the crux of the problem, there's all sorts of carrot, and no stick. I think many of us agree on what the situation is, and why it's intransient, where Paul and I have some difference between us is the onus on the Feds to use the powers they have.

Paul might be right, he certainly is in essence, the Feds are unlikely to wield the incredible power they have without even having to consult Parliament, just the Minister alone (indirectly but effectively) can order sections of various Acts into play. It may in fact be welcomed by CN/CP themselves, but there's little sign of it if they do. CN has been playing coy, and CP just not playing at all.

But the Feds: WTF? Surely! They must see the responsibility they have to *benefit everyone* (even the York Region NIMBYs) by rationalizing this mess. Canada's largest city, and they can't act? They've done it before in Ottawa (via the National Capital legislation as well as Transportation, Relocation and Railway Acts) and they've done it out west.

Why can't they at least be *honest broker* to bring the parties together on this issue? I despise Wynne and Il Duce, but in all fairness to them, they need the Feds at the table stating: "Either you come to a sensible agreement, or we tell you what it's going to be".

The US wouldn't and hasn't hesitated in such cases. Neither have European and other nations. Why are the Feds less nutritious than a wet noodle on this?
 
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Wasn't sure if article this should be in the GO Construction thread or this one, but I found this article interesting - and current - on the issue of adding more GO train service to the Milton Line and CP Rail's position. Might be relevant for other lines where GO doesn't own the tracks, how municipalities react, advice for senior political leaders. Headline only below.

This is such a blame deferment. There is nothing stopping Metrolinx from adding more tracks in the Milton corridor, exclusively for GO Trains. I'm pretty sure there is even an EA or at least a preliminary plan floating around to do it.

I mean, all the projects for expansion on other corridors are for more tracks, but even the outset of the creation of the Milton line in the 1970's required extra tracks and sidetracks to be built.

Yup, Metrolinx is lazy, the blame is on them
 
No :) The cost were outlined here. https://www.milton.ca/MeetingDocuments/Council/agendas2015/rpts2015/ENG-020-15 The Missing Link Final Report.pdf

Why wasn't Metrolinx willing to pay an extra 3.5 billion to get the job done yet waste almost 200 million just for the airport train?

1) Even if the Province (who directs Metrolinx what to spend on, so it's better to refer to the Province) wanted to spend the amount you've quoted, this is the biggest challenge: "In discussions held earlier this year, senior CN staff indicated to senior Regional representatives that CN was also opposed to any connection between the CP/Milton rail line and the CN-York mainline." See here.

2) Another challenge.

3) The Federal government, who in theory could force this to happen in addition to financially contributing, has given no indication they are interested.

4) The federal government initiated the efforts to build UP Express. When the private sector operator bailed the Province directed Metrolinx to take it over. So, if you're mad at decisions made, vote accordingly.

5) There is more discussion on this in the Missing Link/Bypass thread.
 
1) Even if the Province (who directs Metrolinx what to spend on, so it's better to refer to the Province) wanted to spend the amount you've quoted, this is the biggest challenge: "In discussions held earlier this year, senior CN staff indicated to senior Regional representatives that CN was also opposed to any connection between the CP/Milton rail line and the CN-York mainline." See here.

2) Another challenge.

3) The Federal government, who in theory could force this to happen in addition to financially contributing, has given no indication they are interested.

4) The federal government initiated the efforts to build UP Express. When the private sector operator bailed the Province directed Metrolinx to take it over. So, if you're mad at decisions made, vote accordingly.

5) There is more discussion on this in the Missing Link/Bypass thread.
All of which makes you wonder what happens if a) the bypass never happens or b) the negotiations get held up for a long time.

The dialogue seems to indicate that there is no longer a "plan b" (at least as it relates to the KW corridor which I follow closer).....all the plans for future service (7 day service of any kind, evening service of any kind,ReR and HSR) seem predicated on the bypass being built.
 
Agreed on every point. I was going to answer that post, and thought best to leave it to someone more meticulous in doing so.

No-one is defending Metrolinx or Wynne/Il Duce, but to think this is somehow their failing just isn't the case in this instance. Rather than belabour the point that Allandale puts so well, I'll just add this wild card. It doesn't seem to directly address the point in discussion, but has huge over-all ramifications:
https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/re...36799318/?ref=http://www.theglobeandmail.com&

The depth of CRRC and associated company pockets is almost beyond comprehension. We're talking $Trillions...the Missing Link might yet be a private endeavour.
 
All of which makes you wonder what happens if a) the bypass never happens or b) the negotiations get held up for a long time.

The dialogue seems to indicate that there is no longer a "plan b" (at least as it relates to the KW corridor which I follow closer).....all the plans for future service (7 day service of any kind, evening service of any kind,ReR and HSR) seem predicated on the bypass being built.

Maybe in 2018 or 2019 when the EA for the Bypass is done and a final cost is known, we'll get a sense. Maybe the Province will wait until then for the Kitchener Line for Plan B. For the Milton Line, guess we'll have to continue to wait to see what happens. Unless CP is willing to accept the grade separation near the Humber River and the Province commits to funding. Or, another party promises and then becomes more effective negotiators that's able to get CP and CN to agree to something previous governments haven't been able to.
 
No :) The cost were outlined here. https://www.milton.ca/MeetingDocuments/Council/agendas2015/rpts2015/ENG-020-15 The Missing Link Final Report.pdf

Why wasn't Metrolinx willing to pay an extra 3.5 billion to get the job done yet waste almost 200 million just for the airport train?

I'm wondering where you got only $200M?

The investment made in GTS for upgrades to the Georgetown Corridor, excluding UPX, was reported as $875M. According to the Province, UPX was an additional $459M - "delivered on time, on budget" by their account.

The thing that we are just bitterly returning to is that the $875M got us very little additional service on this line, certainly nothing like what was promised. That amount is on top of what was invested in 2003-2005 to triple track parts of the Halton Sub, double track others, and build an additional bridge track (with piers for a third track) over the Credit River. (I'm still hunting for what that might have cost)

Somehow all that money was invested without getting a binding and enforceable commitment from CN supporting further service, beyond the meagre additions since the Mount Pleasant triple tracking opened in February 2005. Metrolinx has yet to answer for how that (didn't) happen.

An interesting summary of all the to-ing and fro-ing by GO on this line prior to kicking off the GTS Project can be found in this 2009 report to Brampton City Council. There was a decade of delay before GTS. And, just to remind all, the EA for Doubletracking from Georgetown to Kitchener was completed eight years ago, in 2009.

But yeah, that's where we are. I do see the RER Business Case document lays out a number of Plan B options for the Bramalea-Georgetown portion, which were developed before the bypass was seriously tabled. I would guess that these bound the amount that CN can ask for the bypass. I am still hopeful that there is a negotiation proceeding with a result somewhere in between Plan A and these Plan B options.

- Paul
 
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^ All of the above is helpful. My question though is how involved the Minister's office is in providing direction, or telling Metrolinx to agree or not agree to something.

Metrolinx to the Minister's office: we've tried negotiating with CN. Here's what we got. Should we keep trying?
MO: no what we've got is fine for now.

Ultimately, the Minister's office should have been aware at the time what the commitment was or should have asked if the didn't know. If they didn't ask and now peolple rightfully are concerned, it comes down to Ministerial accountability.
 
I'm wondering where you got only $200M?

The investment made in GTS for upgrades to the Georgetown Corridor, excluding UPX, was reported as $875M. According to the Province, UPX was an additional $459M - "delivered on time, on budget" by their account.

The thing that we are just bitterly returning to is that the $875M got us very little additional service on this line, certainly nothing like what was promised. That amount is on top of what was invested in 2003-2005 to triple track parts of the Halton Sub, double track others, and build an additional bridge track (with piers for a third track) over the Credit River. (I'm still hunting for what that might have cost)

Somehow all that money was invested without getting a binding and enforceable commitment from CN supporting further service, beyond the meagre additions since the Mount Pleasant triple tracking opened in February 2005. Metrolinx has yet to answer for how that (didn't) happen.

An interesting summary of all the to-ing and fro-ing by GO on this line prior to kicking off the GTS Project can be found in this 2009 report to Brampton City Council. There was a decade of delay before GTS. And, just to remind all, the EA for Doubletracking from Georgetown to Kitchener was completed eight years ago, in 2009.

But yeah, that's where we are. I do see the RER Business Case document lays out a number of Plan B options for the Bramalea-Georgetown portion, which were developed before the bypass was seriously tabled. I would guess that these bound the amount that CN can ask for the bypass. I am still hopeful that there is a negotiation proceeding with a result somewhere in between Plan A and these Plan B options.

- Paul
GTS (excluding the UP cost) was a $1.2B project

http://urbantoronto.ca/news/2014/11/georgetown-south-rail-corridor-upgrade-approaches-completion

http://nationalpost.com/news/toront...from-toronto-for-rail-link-to-pearson-airport
 

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