GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

[smallspy]

Perhaps, but that still doesn't answer the question on quad seating, and how to deal with lack of leg space. "Go without heat" is an obvious avoidance of answering a relatively easy engineering fix. The heating is electric, and it can be placed under the seating, like other makes of coaches do. Where is it on the new streetcars? The wasted space under the quad seating is a perfect place for it.

BBD already have the answers, it's just that Ontario is unwillingly to pay for the upgrades: (Note this much newer unit-train design is where the newer seats are coming from. It's the one with the fold-up seats by the doors featured in a pic I posted prior)

View attachment 174110

https://www.bombardier.com/content/dam/Websites/bombardiercom/Events/Supporting%20Documents/BT/bombardier-transportation-OMNEO-brochure-en.pdf

You're assuming that whatever methodologies that Bombardier is presenting for the Omneo product line either will fit into a BiLevel structural envelope, or is capable of dealing with the heating requirements of this particular area of the planet. While I don't know specifically the case for the first, I can assume that considering the amount of redesign that went into the CEM cars and the fact that they did not use any sort of similar methodology for heating and cooling the cars that it wouldn't fit or was not applicable.

Dan

 

[steveintoronto]

I can assume

It's been done on other makes of coaches. I can assume the limitation is cost, not do-ability. It's not a structural member in that raceway. It's an electrical conduit with heating elements in it. And it takes up almost half the leg room of the window seats.

To be clear, I'm not suggesting the adoption of a new HVAC system, it's radically different. What I'm suggesting is the equivalent to renovating a carriage, office or living room: Move the gigantic baseboard rads to where they're out of the way and actually more effective and efficient, which is why I suggested using the wasted space under the quad seating. That alone would render much more leg room for the window seats. This isn't hot-water or steam heating. It's electric. Very easy to move.

 

[Allandale25]

Apologies if this was already posted.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1097151364373929984

 

[smallspy]

It's been done on other makes of coaches. I can assume the limitation is cost, not do-ability. It's not a structural member in that raceway. It's an electrical conduit with heating elements in it. And it takes up almost half the leg room of the window seats.

To be clear, I'm not suggesting the adoption of a new HVAC system, it's radically different. What I'm suggesting is the equivalent to renovating a carriage, office or living room: Move the gigantic baseboard rads to where they're out of the way and actually more effective and efficient, which is why I suggested using the wasted space under the quad seating. That alone would render much more leg room for the window seats. This isn't hot-water or steam heating. It's electric. Very easy to move.

And yet, the CC&F cars built for CN in 1954 have a similar raceway there. So do all of the Canadian-built subway cars that have operated in Toronto, and the CLRVs. Heck, so do the LRC coaches.

There is not much you can do as there is a pretty specific heating requirement for a car of that size and with that much surface area. On top of that, you need a very specific amount of air space around the radiant heating elements in order to properly propagate the heat and to prevent burns to passengers.

The only way to make those raceways smaller would be to remove heating elements from them, and therefore you'd have to incorporate heating systems elsewhere in the car. And on the BiLevel design, with a floor of only 3 or 4 inches in depth, that may not be possible.

Dan

 

[APTA-2048]

Agree with most of your points, as I have many times here previously, but the point of Metrolinx's admission of (gist) "only 66% of passengers get a seat" is the point I'm addressing.

Some posters say the answer is to provide more trains. I agree. They're not coming. So either more seats are provided within the same space, or more standing room, or more won't get a ride at all. That's the choice, and I'm just the messenger.

Like everything, real solutions take commitment. Augmenting seating is a Band-aid that will eventually wear off.

I've yet to see an answer on where to put the leg next to the window with the service conduit intruding.

In my opinion, I don't find the baseboard heater all that intrusive. On occasion I'd rest my foot on top of it, but most of the time I just have my feet on the ground.

 

[steveintoronto]

Like everything, real solutions take commitment. Augmenting seating is a Band-aid that will eventually wear off.


In my opinion, I don't find the baseboard heater all that intrusive. On occasion I'd rest my foot on top of it, but most of the time I just have my feet on the ground.

And if you wore a skirt?

but most of the time I just have my feet on the ground.

With someone sitting next to you, one facing you, and one diagonal to you?

Must be very tight knees and small shoes...there's barely enough room for four that close if the baseboard intrusion wasn't there.

 

[steveintoronto]

So do all of the Canadian-built subway cars that have operated in Toronto, and the CLRVs.

Interesting you should make that comment. On was on both today, thinking exactly that point, and as much as they too are intrusion, it's nowhere to the scale of the DD one. I also took careful note of how discontinuous the 'hump' was in a coach with four sets of doors opening much more often that the GO coaches do. with two for two floors. And for the amount of exposed heating rad, it was a fraction of what the DD has upstairs alone.

It could have been CFC buses for all I care. The DDs going through refurb with new seats could have maximized leg room by some very simple rearrangement of the 'accoutrements'. They did that downstairs near the doors. Well done! More standing room and better weather screens by the doors. But leaving that hump where it is while reinstalling quad seating that actually reduces the effective pitch is a blunder. If automakers left a hump in the middle of the floor pan after removing the standard transmission, there would be serious complaints. But of course, they're not sole sourced...

 

[APTA-2048]

And if you wore a skirt?

You'd need to ask someone who wears a skirt.

With someone sitting next to you, one facing you, and one diagonal to you?

Yes. Sometimes I rest my foot on the heater and sometimes I rest my foot on the floor.

Must be very tight knees and small shoes...there's barely enough room for four that close if the baseboard intrusion wasn't there.

I'm 5'11" with size 11 feet. Can't say I've had much of a problem sitting in the BiLevels, both on and off peak. However, there are a couple spots that are too tight: the seats immediately before the lavatory and the seats immediately before the CSA's position on the older BiLevels.

 

[steveintoronto]

It seems that GO have modified the heating raceway hump:

GO Transit

alamy.com

The stamped metal slats must have chewed a few legs in their time, I blame skirts and women. Imagine having the audacity to think they can safely ride those trains in office attire. It seems GO/Metrolinx were somewhat attuned to the intrusion and put a muzzle on the snarl, but also note how the seats are actually closer together on the newer improved ones!

Here's an earlier story on Metrolinx' claims for the new seats. Note there's no claim for "more leg room." That came later...and one wonders why and how?
GO train seats are about to get cushier, curvier and cleaner
BY STEVE KUPFERMAN | JANUARY 24, 2014

GO train seats are about to get cushier, curvier and cleaner

GO trains aren't known for their thoughtful interior design. Odds are that nothing will ever change that, but it's nice that Metrolinx is trying. The GO

torontolife.com

And later:

https://twitter.com/x/status/605733336317890560

Magic..."Why it's because we removed the leg-graters...and...errr...there was more room!"

And take close note:

Along with giving you more ways to get around and a more comfortable ride, the new train cars give you:

• More leg room, and more space between and underneath seats for bags and luggage.
• Thicker cushions on the seats and head rests, and moveable arm rests.
• Washrooms with electric hand dryers, and touchless faucets and soap dispensers.
• Additional floor heat to keep temperatures warmer during the winter months.
• Floors that decrease the train's noise, for a quieter ride.
• Softer lighting that is easier on your eyes.
• Doorways without a centre pole that allow for more space when getting in and out of the train car - especially with strollers and bikes.

Our Vehicles | About Us | GO Transit

GO Transit has many vehicles to get you where you want to go. Learn more about our double-decker buses and trains.

www.gotransit.com

I was asked to believe by a poster who claims to know these things, that that wasn't possible. And there it is, being claimed by Metrolinx themselves.

There is not much you can do as there is a pretty specific heating requirement for a car of that size and with that much surface area. On top of that, you need a very specific amount of air space around the radiant heating elements in order to properly propagate the heat and to prevent burns to passengers.

The only way to make those raceways smaller would be to remove heating elements from them, and therefore you'd have to incorporate heating systems elsewhere in the car. And on the BiLevel design, with a floor of only 3 or 4 inches in depth, that may not be possible.

So they took the cheese-grater off of the heater hump, but didn't reduce the rest of the raceway dimension and add even more underfloor heating to almost or completely eliminate it. Curious...

Speaking of legroom...

And take a look at how much larger the new seats are! More Metrolinx Magic!

Hey, just shrink the pic on the left, and increase the one on the right....and...Magic!

Now, how many fingers?

 

[Northern Light]

Looking at those seats and thinking of them...............it rather amuses, and confounds me how narrow the shoulders are.

Even a smaller man.......in summer attire would occupy every inch by the looks of it.

But in winter coats and/or formal attire w/square-off shoulders.....? On a larger man?

Way too small.

It strikes me that this is something not thought of creatively by rolling stock makers or transit providers..........not all riders are the same size......nor are they the same size all year round (given attire changes)

There is actually room to create greater comfort and better utilize space by varying seat size and configuration.

I realize this could add a rider nuisance if you sit in a smaller seat unawares............

But it increasingly strikes me as suspect to make all seats the same size, whereby tall/broad-shouldered or heavy-set men invariably feel constricted............while other, smaller passengers have more space than they need.

There's room to get creative here............maybe indicating the difference via colour/pattern.........or putting the larger seats on one side and the smaller on the the other............

 

[steveintoronto]

^ I had to do a fair amount of digging, as you can imagine, to get pics to compare and track down the claims by Metrolinx, and your points might be open to quibbling, but all you write has been said by many others on the subject, mostly riders themselves.

What astounds me is the "Emperor's Clothes' attitude people have on this. It's proof that advertising and 'conditioning' (a nice word for brainwashing) works. Goebbels lives! (Tell them a small lie, and they won't believe you, but tell them a big one and...)

I've yet to take a tape-measure onto GO to confirm what appears to be clearly evident from the window dimensions in the pics showing how the seats are actually closer together. Seat pitch is exactly same, old to new, for the quads...unless they've stretched the windows in the rinse...It's the window pillars that demark the quad seating pitch.

I have more observations I've made on this, but will leave them until later. And I'm definitely going to ask women how they deal with the 'heating hump'. I'm sure I know what the answers will be....lol...save for the odd 'womanspreader' in the vertical dimension. In the general population, we're outnumbered (approx) 51:49. In the GO train at peak? Probably even more. And yet dealing with thoughtless intrusion 'is their problem'. It's OUR problem.

And other nations have addressed this a lot better.

or putting the larger seats on one side and the smaller on the the other............

Quick reply to this, all your points deserve discussion, but as a microcosm comment on society in general, the more I look at how seat room is trying to be 'defined' (as you suggest for big and small) the Fifties, of all eras and the decades prior had it right! Bench seats, plush, resilient, natural fibres, and you took the space you needed, no more, no less.

Instead we have the trend to isolated zombies who can't read timetables and want it all. "Where's the Wi-Fi?", It can't all be catered to, albeit the Emperor's Clothes exude a kind of Soma for them. Just don't ask them to look you in the eye as you sit next to them. Ditto for buses! The height of absurdity is the row of seats right at the very back of the bus/streetcar. Logic cries out for bench seat! And instead, it's all divided up for you in predigested plastic pallets that fit none, irritate all. All in the name of 'my space'.

Interesting discussion further to this here:

What if buses had bench-style seating?

What might be the pros and cons of installing bench-style seating in buses, like there are in subway systems? I realise this might not be the appropriate site for this question. If so, please redi...

travel.stackexchange.com

 

[raptor]

RFI-2018-STNS-035 - RFI-2018-STNS-035:For Information on Market Solutions for Modular Parking Areas

Metrolinx, an agency of the Government of Ontario under the Metrolinx Act, 2006, was created to improve the coordination and integration of all modes of transportation in the Greater Toronto and Hamilton Area (GTHA). The organization’s mission is to champion, develop and implement an integrated transportation system for our region that enhances prosperity, sustainability and quality of life.

Metrolinx operates GO Transit, Canada’s largest inter-regional rail and bus network, which moves more than 270,000 people every weekday and 68 million passengers per year. The organization also works with local municipalities and transit agencies to plan, build and deliver rapid transit projects across the province.

Metrolinx provides park-and-ride facilities at many rail stations across the Greater Toronto and Hamilton Area (GTHA). Most of the approximately 70,000 parking stalls at GO stations are surface parking. Metrolinx has been expanding surface parking at many stations in response to increasing ridership. One such station that has experienced significant ridership growth is Whitby GO Station.
Whitby GO Station is located in the Town of Whitby east of Toronto on the GO Lakeshore East Line. This station currently has approximately 3,300 regular parking spaces (1,300 structured and 2,000 surface). Of the 2,000 surface spaces, 800 are leased from the Town of Whitby on a temporary basis to provide parking relief; parking is generally 90-100% utilised. In the near-term, the 800 surface parking space leases are expiring and Metrolinx is examining options to provide a non-permanent replacement that can be easily removed when other station access measures, such as improved transit service, are fully implemented. Metrolinx will not be purchasing additional land or constructing permanent structured parking at this location to ease parking constraints; instead, alternative parking solutions that could also be used at other stations will be examined.

 

[Neutrino]

Cue the guy who has a personal hatred against GO parking.

 

[doady]

GO needs to find some way to give discounts to people who walk or bike to the stations instead of spending so much money trying to satisfy the ever-increasing parking demand.

 

[APTA-2048]

Something they really need to do, in my opion, is work with municipalities to provide better service and connections with the trains. Over the last few years I've observed the deterioration of service in Pickering. Trips have been cut, buses don't actually meet the train, half-hourly service is average. I work next to the Pickering GO Station. The bus I take runs every 30 minutes in rush hour. It's no wonder why I am some times the only person on the bus.

If conventional transit service is not working, the answer isn't to just give up. There are already massive parking structures and lots at Pickering GO Station. Focusing development around the station is a good start. The new office and condo buildings are within walking distance of the GO Station. Rudimentary biking infrastructure along Hwy 2 is also a good start. The area around the GO Station is still not friendly if you're not in a car, though. Demand-response transit could be something to try. Similar to the old Dail-A-Bus system they had in place. Passengers could book a ride through their phone and share a bus with people going in generally the same direction. It could be more direct and more flexible.