GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

[steveintoronto]

There is no capacity restraint at PC, regardless of the number of bays,

I studied it by Google Earth last night, and even if there was insufficient bay space, it could be added.

The 103 is a true grid route and needs to bypass SQ1,

I occasionally connect to the 103 via BT #7 to get to PC (southbound at Courtney Park and return trip NB at Derry) it makes me laugh to think that this trip will likely take more time on the LRT than it currently does.

The 29 used to terminate at Cooksville Station, and there was a perfect connection there to the 103. Drivers were always happy to let me (or others) off near the Miway Express stop before looping in the station. That was as good as it got, but the 29 is now what the 29A used to be, it terminates at Sq One.

I can see the huge time advantage in not looping the 103 through Sq One, one of the huge disadvantages of the 21. The 21 is like a milk run through there, I call it 'the circus'. GO couldn't make the trip any more grueling from Sq One to Union. But if they do service locally on that run, then they can't claim that isn't their mandate to do PC!

At the very least, since the 103 is probably as fast as that stretch can be done, and GO don't want to 'compete' on the route, inform Presto to continue the co-fare with Miway, but the continuing trip back on GO from PC to Union be considered a continuous GO fare. GO saves the cost of the Miway provided section, what the hell more do they want? I'm now so used to "tap on/tap off" that I forget to ask for a paper ticket when boarding in K/W or Guelph/Aberfoyle. That paper ticket ensure a single continuous GO fare, but it complicates it for the Miway driver, who has to enter it manually on the farebox to get the co-fare when using Presto to tap on Miway. This is a Presto problem actually. Miway's portion should be able to be included in the printed fare, just like train and transit systems elsewhere in about a thousand other jurisdictions. Or fix Presto to make it do what they claimed it would do...

There needs to be more grid routes to service the Lakeshore line, as well other ones.

There sure does. Erin Mills and Winston Churchill loops are excellent places to transfer v Sq One. I now pick up the 109 at either, you just walk down the platform. A GO or Miway Express from there south to the LSW would be a real advantage.

There is no grid or a route that service Georgetown and the LSW, let alone Militon. Some of these needs to be GO routes, let alone local systems.

If getting through Sq One wasn't such a huge impediment in getting to west end and central Toronto (and the 407 West Bus series were more direct from Guelph/Aberfoyle to Bramalea) then this discussion wouldn't be necessary. As per Aberfoyle, if the 30 K/W Express looped there (at the cost of about 5-10 mins to the overall schedule) while the Mt Pleasant train service is running, Toronto west end would be vastly better connected time-wise to the Guelph/Aberfoyle region. The 30 bus actually gets to K/W faster than if it were the train. The now defunct 39 to Guelph did same, *even with the slow stretch up Hwy 6 from Aberfoyle*!

Of course, the real answer for Guelph and K/W is AD2W trains....sigh. That may actually happen some generation. But there's also @drum118 's point on the lack of north-south bus connections to LSW. It seems GO love to torture their passengers by shoving them through the Sq One meatgrinder.

On an up-note, with the September timetable changes, taking the first train of the day west to Bramalea allows an onward connection in ten minutes to 47 (?...might be 48) to Sq One, and then ten mins wait there to get the 29 to points west, a huge improvement on how it used to be. The train used to arrive exactly when that bus was leaving previously.

Discussing this with one of the drivers, he chuckled, and called it 'serendipity' as the change on the 47(?) bus schedule is "probably due to the mess at York University".

Whatever, even with the total wasted 20 minutes, it's still more advantageous than taking the 33 bus from Mt Pleasant...a great scenic route that usually gets you there the same day. The 48 bus takes about as long without the scenery.

Edit to Add: Poring over GO timetables last night, trying to find why PC still shows for GO bus connections, realized it's two callings of the 18 bus in the early morning to Union.

 

[cplchanb]

I'm not sure if this has been discussed previously but why did metrolinx reject having an eglinton station on the rh line. It seems such an obvious benefit and opportunity to add to the ridership with the ect being built and it would definitely help my commute because my office is on eglinton and I live close to langstaff stn.

 

[robmausser]

I'm not sure if this has been discussed previously but why did metrolinx reject having an eglinton station on the rh line. It seems such an obvious benefit and opportunity to add to the ridership with the ect being built and it would definitely help my commute because my office is on eglinton and I live close to langstaff stn.

Hard to engineer. Possible but the RH track is deep compared to Eglinton road

Not worth the $ yet

Plus if RH line is moved onto the CP don branch routing in the future the station would become abandoned

Still possible in the future but waiting on what will happen with RH line

 

[Allandale25]

I occasionally connect to the 103 via BT #7 to get to PC (southbound at Courtney Park and return trip NB at Derry) it makes me laugh to think that this trip will likely take more time on the LRT than it currently does.

The LRT "currently does" or would it be better to phrase it as "is projected to" to make your point?

 

[TOareaFan]

The LRT "currently does" or would it be better to phrase it as "is projected to" to make your point?

I am saying that an LRT from Courtney Park to PC with a loop around SQ1 and a a change of trains there is, in all likelihood going to take longer than the current trip on the 103 from Courtney Park to PC......and that, to me, is funny.

 

[steveintoronto]

The loop around Sq One would be the killer, it is already on any bus that does it (21, etc. It takes forever) but this earlier description also shows Sq One being bypassed too:

[...]
Route
The Hurontario LRT line will run for 19.6 kilometres (12.2 mi) in 40 minutes,[14] estimated to account for 35.2 million trips in 2031.[3][15][16]

The LRT line will begin at the Port Credit GO Station and continue northward, crossing the Queen Elizabeth Way along the current northbound lanes of Hurontario, with the southbound lanes passing beneath the QEW in a new tunnel. At Dundas Street, it will connect to a proposed rapid transit line (either a BRT or an LRT). The LRT will indirectly connect to Cooksville GO Stationusing the LRT stop at John Street. The line continues northward until it splits into two branches between Burnhamthorpe Road and Rathburn Road:

• City Centre Loop alignment: from Hurontario Street, the LRT will turn left at Burnhamthorpe Road, turn right at Duke of York Boulevard, then turn right and follow the northern boulevard of Rathburn Road; it will split north from Rathburn at City Centre Drive and meet the mainline at a raised platform above the current eastbound offramp of Highway 403. This branch serves almost all of Mississauga City Centre using a walking distance of 500 metres (1,600 ft), including those who are transferring to the BRT and City Centre Transit Terminal, as well as Square One Shopping Centre.
• Mainline alignment: the route continues straight along Hurontario Street. This branch serves passengers working in the offices in the eastern part of the City Centre and those who want to bypass Downtown Mississauga and allow faster through travel along Hurontario Street. Beginning at Square One Drive, the LRT will rise above Hurontario before veering west to travel over Highway 403 on a new bridge. It will rejoin Hurontario north of the highway, descending back to street level. This same design is planned over Highway 407, but not at Highway 401(though a station there will provide connections to a commuter parking lot). At Highway 407, the LRT will connect to GO Transit's proposed Highway 407 Transitway. The line will then end at Steeles Avenue where it will descend into an underground station, connecting with the 511 Züm Steeles BRT line at Brampton Gateway Terminal

[...]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurontario_LRT

This may be superseded now. Comments?

 

[drum118]

I am saying that an LRT from Courtney Park to PC with a loop around SQ1 and a a change of trains there is, in all likelihood going to take longer than the current trip on the 103 from Courtney Park to PC......and that, to me, is funny.

On average, any bus on Hurontario going in/out of the current SQ1 Bus Terminal takes about 15 minutes travel time on a good day. The 103 takes about 90 seconds to bypass SQ1 when dropping off or picking up riders. Both Sq One Dr and Robert Speck intersection do cause problems for the 103 at times.

If you want to do the complete loop like the plan LRT will loop, you are looking at about 20-25 minute bus time.

To change from one LRT to another as plan, you can be looking at 5+ minutes extra travel time. This depends what the headways will be for both section, other than every 10 minutes as plan.

As far as I am concern, the loop is a joke and doesn't really help the folks in the core area, regardless if they live there or work there. Even the professional planners in the US and off shore that I deal with say the same thing.

The biggest problem is the location of the current terminal, since the city wasn't welling to spend the money for the right area as well the design of it back in the 80's & 90's. You got a BRT station under the current one already, but the city wasn't prepared to pay the millions to build the tunnel to/from it when the Transitway was being built.

 

[dowlingm]

I'm not sure if this has been discussed previously but why did metrolinx reject having an eglinton station on the rh line. It seems such an obvious benefit and opportunity to add to the ridership with the ect being built and it would definitely help my commute because my office is on eglinton and I live close to langstaff stn.

a station further north on Don Mills looks doable but one in the middle of a conservation area right beside the Don River seems a bit tricky.

 

[steveintoronto]

To change from one LRT to another as plan, you can be looking at 5+ minutes extra travel time. This depends what the headways will be for both section, other than every 10 minutes as plan.

The way various maps I've viewed show, it appears to be a choice of by-pass or loop in. I presume some vehicles will, others won't bypass. If anyone knows the answer, please post.

As far as I am concern, the loop is a joke and doesn't really help the folks in the core area, regardless if they live there or work there

I find it beyond tedious, as well as a complete waste of time. It's everything I want nothing to do with or see.

The biggest problem is the location of the current terminal, since the city wasn't welling to spend the money for the right area as well the design of it back in the 80's & 90's. You got a BRT station under the current one already, but the city wasn't prepared to pay the millions to build the tunnel to/from it when the Transitway was being built.

Ahhh! I've often wondered about that, and how the Miway terminal sits atop a concrete box exposed on three sides. The only reason for many of the GO services there must be the proximity to the Miway terminal. Many of the routes should be looping and terminating closer to the 401, or if the insistence is to be situated geographically where it is, then adjacent to the Cooksville Station (for eventual all-day 2 way trains).

Addendum: @ShonTron has written on this, and I must have glossed over the detail when reading this prior, and this explains not only the illogic of Sq One itself, but also the missing connections south via GO from there:

[...]Early plans called for a completely separate bus-only road, and an underground bus tunnel under Renforth Avenue under Square One, and sixteen stations in total. At Renforth Station, connections would be made to GO Transit and TTC buses (possibly by an extension of the busway eastward along the Richview transportation corridor to the then planned Eglinton West subway).

The Transitway project has since been value-engineered to cut costs. The underground tunnel was cut. The transitway between Square One and Erin Mills Parkway, as well as stops at Mavis and Creditview (with a possible connection to the Milton GO line), were eliminated.

[...]

But the Mississauga Transitway’s problems lie in its isolation, limited opportunities for transit-oriented development along the corridor, difficulty of accessing many of the stations, and poor transfer opportunities to connecting bus routes.

The Transitway is located in a hydro corridor and uses Highway 403. It’s a convenient and direct corridor between Mississauga City Centre and the Airport Corporate Centre, but the surrounding land uses make it nearly impossible to generate any walk-up traffic. Cawthra Station has a small pick-up and drop-off location, as well as 60 parking spaces, but has no bus connections, nor any trip generators.

[...]

In the Airport Corporate Centre, the Mississauga Transitway skirts the south side of the large business park, beside Eglinton Avenue, while many of the office buildings are further north, adjacent to Highway 401. This is a problem of urban planning more than anything; it’s an area built for the car and difficult to serve with transit. This is known as the “last mile problem.” Shuttle buses will be necessary to connect Transitway passengers to many of the jobs located in this area, a problem I discussed earlier about a proposed transit hub at Pearson Airport.

[...]

The most congested part of the Transitway is the section where buses use Rathburn Road, where there is no transit priority. It’s a critical link to GO Transit, Brampton Zum, and, eventually, the Hurontario-Main LRT. Traffic destined for the mall can cause serious congestion here, especially on weekends and before Christmas. It’s the weakest link.

[...]

I’m much more optimistic that the Hurontario-Main LRT, which will replace one of the busiest bus routes outside of the City of Toronto, will achieve these goals. [...]

https://seanmarshall.ca/2016/04/15/missed-opportunities-on-the-mississauga-transitway/

An excellent piece. My own feeling on that part of Mississauga is that I resent being dumped there by GO. It's punishment for just wanting to get from Point A to Point B, and a major reason in my five years in Guelph to take the Greyhound bus for visits back to Toronto for the extra cost to avoid having my nose rubbed in it.

 

[drum118]

Until there is an contract and operator for The Hurontario LRT, the city has yet to comment to funding service that will set the headway. At the same time, where does Brampton fit in with the 502 that will terminate/start at Steeles for funding service, along with Metrolinx??

Ten minutes has been used from Day One, with talk that the line will be split using different headway for each section. Then there been talk that some cars would bypass the loop. Until there is a contract and work is started, its only guessing at this time what service will be.

After a few years of operation, another option could surface for service if ridership is less for part of the loop than plan for.

The big picture back in 2007 was to have GO running all systems under their banner, with different companies running various routes like York Region, based on the London model.

 

[steveintoronto]

Until there is an contract and operator for The Hurontario LRT, the city has yet to comment to funding service that will set the headway.

All good points. I should have thought before asking, as I was naively presuming it would be Miway or Metrolinx, but of course, all I needed to do was Google:

Hurontario Light Rail Transit - Infrastructure Ontario
www.infrastructureontario.ca/Hurontario-Light-Rail-Transit/
The Hurontario Light Rail Transit (LRT) project is part of the Ontario ... Location: Mississauga - Brampton; Project Type: DBFOM - Design Build Finance Operate

 

[smallspy]

CSAs were saying work at Guildwood GO was happening this weekend.

Yep. I went through that station and there were crews on both track 1 and 2 (though mostly 2).

All trains, both directions (including Via) were using track 3.

That is very, very interesting. When I went through later in the day yesterday, there was absolutely no sign of any work being done. And my friends at PNR had indicated that there was nothing out of the ordinary on their schedule for the weekend.

I am genuinely curious about what was going on there that required single-tracking the line.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[rbt]

That is very, very interesting. When I went through later in the day yesterday, there was absolutely no sign of any work being done. And my friends at PNR had indicated that there was nothing out of the ordinary on their schedule for the weekend.

I am genuinely curious about what was going on there that required single-tracking the line.

I didn't look closely (I was at the eastern end around 4pm on Saturday). They were working at the platform edge (standing/kneeling on tracks, facing platform). Could have been setting up forms for a concrete pour or something.

It wasn't a large number of workers.; perhaps 5 or 6.

 

[SaugeenJunction]

Wasn't sure exactly where to post, but because of GO operations at West Harbour and in Hamilton, decided on here:

CN taking back Stuart Street rail yard from regional operator

 

[lenaitch]

Wasn't sure exactly where to post, but because of GO operations at West Harbour and in Hamilton, decided on here:

CN taking back Stuart Street rail yard from regional operator

I found the last paragraph telling:

"The rail hub, which has been there for more than a century, currently blocks public use of 24-plus hectares of harbour land between Bay Street and Dundurn Castle. Train cars containing chemicals, fuel, asphalt and other industrial materials are "shunted," meaning they're sorted into new trains for local delivery, steps away from places like the Waterfront Trail and Bayfront Park."

It was there first. It is private property of a legal industry. It apparently still serves a need. Horrors - rail cars are "steps away" from a trail and a park and contain chemicals, etc. that apparently support the city's industrial base. Perhaps the city shouldn't have put the trail and park there.​