GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

[crs1026]

sounds like the upgrades to CN's Kingston subdivision that VIA and the Feds paid for a few years ago, that VIA seemingly has had very little benefit from.

Well, again there are two sides to that one. CN has allowed VIA a significant number of slots between Toronto and Brockville. So VIA gets awfully good use of CN's capital.
The problem on the Kingston is that the triple tracking is insufficient to properly move the freights out of VIA's way - the scope of the triple tracking was reportedly cut significantly as costs mounted and VIA ran out of money. So instead, CN weaves the passenger trains around the freights, making considerable use of crossovers. Each time VIA slows for crossovers, it loses time.
If the entire planned expansion had happened, things might be different, but as it stands CN has met VIA halfway IMHO.
- Paul

 

[dowlingm]

Actually it's far more than just CN and electrification or not. It's Canada's last century signalling system. Many European nations not only have regional trains running both directions each on half-hourly headways on a single track, but some of them are High Speed!

Canada's transportation would sure look different if we adopted European size/length freight service just so we can have ERTMS/ETCS Level 3.

 

[steveintoronto]

Canada's transportation would sure look different if we adopted European size/length freight service just so we can have ERTMS/ETCS Level 3.

Hasn't stopped Australia. In the event, Level 3 is not even in effect in Europe, and yet they achieve the passenger performance I described prior.

[...]
https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=...aln6Qyr_pmO8Z3Ovg&sig2=41xB5UkFX1Wkfaj0pqeLDw

 

[christiesplits]

Quick question: Do you know if there is a public database of GO Transit schedule archives? Specifically the 90s? Thanks

 

[TOareaFan]

One would think that it would be an equal battle in court....except... we don't know exactly what the comercial terms underneath it all. One wonders if ML is reluctant to reveal what a poor negotiating job they did when all that upgrading was agreed to.
- Paul

how would it end up in court?

CN: we have a limit on how much you can use the track we own.

ML: but we want to use it more

CN: No

ML: please

CN: No, and sorry it is our track

ML: see you in court?

 

[crs1026]

Well a) I'm presuming there is a written contract somewhere already and b) I meant 'court' loosely - ie a transportation tribunal.

If the contract says 'X' trains a day, and ML is at that number..... or if the contract says 'no recourse to a third party' .... then they are SOL, no doubt about it.

- Paul

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I can certainly understand why CN would want a half-hourly two way service using their tracks to pay on a different basis than a few peak period commuter trains. It gets back to contributing to fixed costs and use of CN's capital for non-cn purposes.
Having said that, ML has paid for : a third track Bramalea to Peel; double tracking of Peel to Brampton; a third track Brampton to Norval; renewal and double tracking of CN's Credit River bridge. All of this benefits CN, especially the double tracking which virtually eliminates conflicts between their freights. Arguably, CN's reticence is preventing GO from making use of its capital investment instead of the reverse.
One would think that it would be an equal battle in court....except... we don't know exactly what the comercial terms underneath it all. One wonders if ML is reluctant to reveal what a poor negotiating job they did when all that upgrading was agreed to.
- Paul

This is the question: do the Liberals want to win the election? If so, then start hourly all day service now and put in the 4th/5th what ever track between Mt Pleasant and Bramalea. Whatever the cost of it is. At this point why even get into a court battle, just pay the for the 4th exchange and limit CN from using that track.

 

[KevinT]

For Orillia, all-new tracks would need to be constructed, which would be unprecedented in GO's recent history, wherein they have only extended service along existing rails or they've created/are creating (e.g. Oshawa split service) a small connector rail to move trains onto a nearby existing line from their current route.

Also, I'm not sure where you'd want to put those tracks. Allandale is roughly in downtown Barrie, you can't demolish their downtown to install a railway. You might run trains west-southwest along the existing tracks then curve around just outside of Barrie's city limits to head northeast to Orillia, but again this would require unprecedented new track construction/right of way acquisition, and result in a long circuitous route to get to a small town.

There's the old right-of-way that's still mostly intact, but there's no going back on the parts of it that have been developed: Lakeshore Dr, the Barrie North Shore Trail, Barrie Terrace, and the mansions at Ridge Rd W by 1 Line S. Have fun expropriating those...

 

[dowlingm]

Creating a route to Orillia from Allandale doesn't seem to me to be a big enough prize to go bulldozing through Barrie, or creating a connection onto and off from CP MacTier. Integration between ONTC buses and GO trains would probably be a better first step.

Hell, getting ONTC to publish its schedule into Google Maps would probably be a good first step.
"Why does ONTC not make money?" "Because they are flogging buses up and down the 400 and nobody knows about it?"

 

[smallspy]

Well, again there are two sides to that one. CN has allowed VIA a significant number of slots between Toronto and Brockville. So VIA gets awfully good use of CN's capital.

CN also charges VIA for the right to use their capital, and charges back the maintenance required to keep it to that higher standard. Let's not forget about that.

The problem on the Kingston is that the triple tracking is insufficient to properly move the freights out of VIA's way - the scope of the triple tracking was reportedly cut significantly as costs mounted and VIA ran out of money. So instead, CN weaves the passenger trains around the freights, making considerable use of crossovers. Each time VIA slows for crossovers, it loses time.

The triple-tracking wasn't supposed to move the freights out of the way of the VIAs - it was supposed to move the freights out of the way of other freights, and move VIA's trains out of the way of the freights. And by-and-large, it's done that. But doing those things doesn't necessarily help VIA, either.

There was very little of the originally anticipated triple-tracking cut. The only major-ish section was one at Turcot, as well as a minor section at Coteau and a second short section of 4th track immediately east of Belleville. Everything else was built as funded and planned.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[smallspy]

"Why does ONTC not make money?" "Because they are flogging buses up and down the 400 and nobody knows about it?"

And therein lies the rub.

ONTC was and continues to be the reason for its own demise. It was read the riot act in 2002 by the Provincial government at the time, and yet nothing changed. They are still operating a railroad as if it was the 1950s, both in terms of plant and its agreements with the running trades. And until they stopped running the Northlander, they were running the bus service in competition with - rather than complimenting - the train service.

No one is to blame for ONTC's woes but itself.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[crs1026]

CN also charges VIA for the right to use their capital, and charges back the maintenance required to keep it to that higher standard. Let's not forget about that.

And GO isn't charged similarly? So, why is CN so recalcitrant?

Dan, don't forget the "fixed cost included" versus "variable costs only" debates of the 1980's. That led to a formula that is somewhere in between. We don't know what today's formula is, because no one will describe it publicly..... but it is said to be considerably less than full fixed costs, let alone full return-on-capital.

There was very little of the originally anticipated triple-tracking cut. The only major-ish section was one at Turcot, as well as a minor section at Coteau and a second short section of 4th track immediately east of Belleville. Everything else was built as funded and planned.

According to the Auditor General's report, VIA completed only 70km of a planned 160 km triple tracking. That's a lot less than plan.

- Paul

 

[micheal_can]

And therein lies the rub.

ONTC was and continues to be the reason for its own demise. It was read the riot act in 2002 by the Provincial government at the time, and yet nothing changed. They are still operating a railroad as if it was the 1950s, both in terms of plant and its agreements with the running trades. And until they stopped running the Northlander, they were running the bus service in competition with - rather than complimenting - the train service.

No one is to blame for ONTC's woes but itself.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

Actually, the train was doing well towards the end. The problem was the schedule. They don't run on Sundays.

 

[reaperexpress]

ONTC was and continues to be the reason for its own demise. It was read the riot act in 2002 by the Provincial government at the time, and yet nothing changed. They are still operating a railroad as if it was the 1950s, both in terms of plant and its agreements with the running trades. And until they stopped running the Northlander, they were running the bus service in competition with - rather than complimenting - the train service.

No one is to blame for ONTC's woes but itself.

Well, the ONTC itself, and the billions of dollars the province spent on freeway construction parallel to the train, and the fact that the communities it served are small and remote...

 

[micheal_can]

Well, the ONTC itself, and the billions of dollars the province spent on freeway construction parallel to the train, and the fact that the communities it served are small and remote...

The freeway ends at North Bay. Cochrane was the northern end of the Northlander. North Bay to Cochrane is 375km.

Small towns? Between Sudbury Junction and Winnipeg, the Canadian run by VIA passes through almost empty land. That is for well over 2000km.

So, next excuse, please.