GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

[steveintoronto]

RER on all lines isn't going to happen before the next election, or the next few elections, for that matter. Hourly all day, 2 way, every day, on Kitchener & Barrie, and Stouffville weekday services are, however, scheduled to be up and operating. They're already late on some aspects. That may or may not be totally their fault but those are the realities. If these steps are not in place, they'll lose a lot of votes. Maybe including mine.

Many thanks for a note of pragmatism and realism. It's a little frightening as to how so many are so easily misled, which is exactly why the likes of Il Duce is out there making announcements every other day. I think you're a bit optimistic on the K/W hourly all day though.

Edit to Add:

Apr 07, 2017 | Vote 0 0
Significant work required to bring two-way all-day GO trains to Kitchener

Waterloo Region Record
By Brent Davis
KITCHENER — Metrolinx officials say 2024 remains the goal for introducing two-way, all-day GO Train service to Kitchener, but considerable work is required to make that happen.

2024 "is still the objective," director of service planning Chris Burke said following an information session in Kitchener Friday. But specifics on the service, such as the number of trips that may be offered each day, remain elusive.

"We do try to model what is the right service level," said chief communications officer Judy Pfeifer, adding that those service models haven't been released.

Currently, there are four morning trains and four afternoon trains between Kitchener and Toronto, and $1.2 billion was invested between 2010 and 2015 to improve the corridor between the two cities. But extensive new construction and upgrades are still required to further boost service and speed trips up to the 70- or 75-minute range from the current two hours or so.

A fourth track needs to be constructed between Union Station and the Mount Pleasant GO station in Brampton, while a second 52 kilometre-long track is required between Georgetown and Kitchener. A new tunnel under Highway 401 will be built, and signalling and communication systems need to be upgraded

There's also the matter of building a new 30-kilometre rail bypass between Bramalea and Milton to shift freight trains off a corridor that's currently shared with GO trains.

That project in itself could require up to 35 new bridges, the relocation or modification of up to 17 hydro towers and relocating up to 3.4 kilometres of major gas lines. A total of 60 kilometres of new track would be laid (two tracks at 30 kilometres each), a new signal system is required and a new grade separation would be built where the new bypass meets the existing rail corridor.

While an agreement in principle with CN Rail for the bypass has been reached, a formal agreement is still needed.

Ideally, service to Kitchener would also be electrified by 2024, Burke said. But that would require overhead wiring and other electrical infrastructure and a new fleet to replace the current diesel trains.

Last week, the federal government announced $752 million in funding to help improve infrastructure along the Kitchener rail corridor. On Friday, Metrolinx officials couldn't provide a total budget for the project to bring two-way, all-day service to Kitchener, but said all of the required work has been funded. It's part of $30 billion in ongoing investment to improve transit in the Greater Toronto and Hamilton areas.

"The amount of infrastructure being built is significant, and the investment is significant," Pfeifer said.


bdavis@therecord.com , Twitter: @DavisRecord

http://www.therecord.com/news-story...bring-two-way-all-day-go-trains-to-kitchener/

 

[cbrown2009]

Many thanks for a note of pragmatism and realism. It's a little frightening as to how so many are so easily misled, which is exactly why the likes of Il Duce is out there making announcements every other day. I think you're a bit optimistic on the K/W hourly all day though. They might achieve bi-hourly off-peak, we'll see. It would be very handy for me.

Well, they already have weekday midday hourly, which has been great for me. Just need to add in the evenings & weekends.

Edit to add: To the point about evenings & weekends, I know ML is still "negotiating every day" with CN on track use between Bramalea and Mount Pleasant, but I just don't see what CN could be kvetching about. By my (admittedly very amateur) observations, that stretch of track isn't flooded with freight traffic to the point that hourly Go service should be a problem. Hope this gets done soon.

 

[steveintoronto]

Well, they already have weekday midday hourly, which has been great for me. Just need to add in the evenings & weekends.

Only to Mt Pleasant, and not all-day. I use it often, but the inward trips stop late afternoon.

 

[dowlingm]

There were many issues that caused it's demise. Ticketing, schedule, frequency, etc. But if it were a GO line, the government would have fixed those.

The fact that ONTC and its various divisions and activities was in Northern Development and Metrolinx in Transport didn't help. ONTC principally regarded as a social program/jobs provider rather than a transportation entity?

 

[steveintoronto]

but I just don't see what CN could be kvetching about. By my (admittedly very amateur) observations, that stretch of track isn't flooded with freight traffic to the point that hourly Go service should be a problem. Hope this gets done soon.

Actually it's far more than just CN and electrification or not. It's Canada's last century signalling system.

They're making the claim for the need for four tracks in sections to do this. To anyone familiar with this generation's signalling and control systems, that's bizarre beyond comprehension, save for a nation that lives in the past. CBTC is good in some respects, but very limited compared to State of the Art. Canada doesn't even have CBTC.

Many European nations not only have regional trains running both directions each on half-hourly headways on a single track, but some of them are High Speed! I have studies handy here, won't post unless challenged. It all comes down to computer aided signalling, control and passing loops. And many European nations have had their own system to do this for over a generation, now they've merged them all into https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Train_Control_System

It's all a bit complex for the likes of the colonists now only 150 years old.

Edit to Add: I stand corrected! Hallelujah!
Bombardier Inc’s rail-control division awarded first Canadian project
Bombardier Inc.’s rail-control division is embarking on its first Canadian project, supplying the signals for Toronto’s Eglinton Crosstown light rail transit line.
http://business.financialpost.com/n...ntrol-division-awarded-first-canadian-project

This is CBTC, a first for Canada, now only a generation behind, not many generations.

 

[cbrown2009]

Only to Mt Pleasant, and not all-day. I use it often, but the inward trips stop late afternoon.

I find that very frustrating and annoying but we take what we can get... For now.

Actually it's far more than just CN and electrification or not. It's Canada's last century signalling system.

They're making the claim for the need for four tracks in sections to do this. To anyone familiar with this generation's signalling and control systems, that's bizarre beyond comprehension, save for a nation that lives in the past. CBTC is good in some respects, but very limited compared to State of the Art. Canada doesn't even have CBTC.

Many European nations not only have regional trains running both directions each on half-hourly headways on a single track, but some of them are High Speed! I have studies handy here, won't post unless challenged. It all comes down to computer aided signalling, control and passing loops. And many European nations have had their own system to do this for over a generation, now they've merged them all into https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Train_Control_System

It's all a bit complex for the likes of the colonists now only 150 years old.

Ok granted. But ML/CN managed to put in the midday hourly service to Mount Pleasant. So what's the difference for evenings and weekends?

 

[steveintoronto]

Ok granted. But ML/CN managed to put in the midday hourly service to Mount Pleasant. So what's the difference for evenings and weekends?

To Mt Pleasant? Absolutely none that I can reckon. It's a very good point.

Here's the rationale they'll trot out: Cost. Which is a very lame excuse when they already promised it, not to mention if you don't provide the service, then it never will build the clientèle.

On weekends, they could run three car trains...I don't know if that would complicate things at the yard, but there are economies they could and should embrace. They could also run their imminently to be retired F59s with those shorter consists, and they'd still accelerate and brake faster than an MP40 or MP54 with 10 and 12 car consists.

Run 3 car sets of run-down coaches in the refurbishment line, squeeze them for all their worth before rebuilding them. All that's needed is a loco, a cab-car (old style would be fine, all up for refurbishment) an Accessibility Coach, and whatever else can be found for the third regular passenger with bikes at the end coach. No-one is asking for the Queen's China. And if something breaks-down, at least it's not during peak.

You don't need a Cadillac to do the shopping.

 

[nfitz]

If were talking extensions from Barrie (Allandale Waterfront) I think Collingwood is logical

It's more about which ridings are in place, and winnable.

If the Liberals really have a shot at Simcoe—Grey, then I don't think they have to offer ANY extensions!

We've seen recent promised for new stations on extensions into Oshawa, Bowamanville, Stoney Creek, etc. These presumably are in play.

Galt is a possibility then. Maybe Peterborough. Ancaster and Brantford?

Now, I haven't looked at the new ridings for the next election, only the old ones. Depending on how they fall, perhaps Bolton via Vaughan.

Probably easier to play a card from McGuinty's deck, and offer another statutory holiday - Remembrance Day perhaps?

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

RER on all lines isn't going to happen before the next election, or the next few elections, for that matter. Hourly all day, 2 way, every day, on Kitchener & Barrie, and Stouffville weekday services are, however, scheduled to be up and operating. They're already late on some aspects. That may or may not be totally their fault but those are the realities. If these steps are not in place, they'll lose a lot of votes. Maybe including mine.

RER on all lines would be the promise. Anything less than that would not be enough.



There were many issues that caused it's demise. Ticketing, schedule, frequency, etc. But if it were a GO line, the government would have fixed those.

Amen and Amen guys. Let's hope they get it done.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Actually it's far more than just CN and electrification or not. It's Canada's last century signalling system.

They're making the claim for the need for four tracks in sections to do this. To anyone familiar with this generation's signalling and control systems, that's bizarre beyond comprehension, save for a nation that lives in the past. CBTC is good in some respects, but very limited compared to State of the Art. Canada doesn't even have CBTC.

Many European nations not only have regional trains running both directions each on half-hourly headways on a single track, but some of them are High Speed! I have studies handy here, won't post unless challenged. It all comes down to computer aided signalling, control and passing loops. And many European nations have had their own system to do this for over a generation, now they've merged them all into https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Train_Control_System

It's all a bit complex for the likes of the colonists now only 150 years old.

Edit to Add: I stand corrected! Hallelujah!
Bombardier Inc’s rail-control division awarded first Canadian project
Bombardier Inc.’s rail-control division is embarking on its first Canadian project, supplying the signals for Toronto’s Eglinton Crosstown light rail transit line.
http://business.financialpost.com/n...ntrol-division-awarded-first-canadian-project

This is CBTC, a first for Canada, now only a generation behind, not many generations.

Many thanks for a note of pragmatism and realism. It's a little frightening as to how so many are so easily misled, which is exactly why the likes of Il Duce is out there making announcements every other day. I think you're a bit optimistic on the K/W hourly all day though.

Edit to Add:

http://www.therecord.com/news-story...bring-two-way-all-day-go-trains-to-kitchener/

Well, they already have weekday midday hourly, which has been great for me. Just need to add in the evenings & weekends.

Edit to add: To the point about evenings & weekends, I know ML is still "negotiating every day" with CN on track use between Bramalea and Mount Pleasant, but I just don't see what CN could be kvetching about. By my (admittedly very amateur) observations, that stretch of track isn't flooded with freight traffic to the point that hourly Go service should be a problem. Hope this gets done soon.

I think if VIA was funded properly and picked up some of the slack, it would help things greatly.

 

[micheal_can]

Between ONTC and VIA We could have great intercity/express train service in the province. Unfortunately, the government only cares about Toronto.

 

[nfitz]

Between ONTC and VIA We could have great intercity/express train service in the province. Unfortunately, the government only cares about Toronto.

Yeah, that's why they've dropped all that money on subways in the last 35 years - because they only care about Toronto ...

Heck, they proved that by the forced amalgamation, didn't they ...

 

[TOareaFan]

Edit to add: To the point about evenings & weekends, I know ML is still "negotiating every day" with CN on track use between Bramalea and Mount Pleasant, but I just don't see what CN could be kvetching about. By my (admittedly very amateur) observations, that stretch of track isn't flooded with freight traffic to the point that hourly Go service should be a problem. Hope this gets done soon.

Money?

As I have pointed out before, ML have negotiated themselves into a corner.....they paid for the two ends of the corridor and now find themselves in need of the middle.....regardless of how much CN is using that middle....they are negotiating from a position of strength.....a position granted to them by the company they are now negotiating with.

 

[crs1026]

I can certainly understand why CN would want a half-hourly two way service using their tracks to pay on a different basis than a few peak period commuter trains. It gets back to contributing to fixed costs and use of CN's capital for non-cn purposes.
Having said that, ML has paid for : a third track Bramalea to Peel; double tracking of Peel to Brampton; a third track Brampton to Norval; renewal and double tracking of CN's Credit River bridge. All of this benefits CN, especially the double tracking which virtually eliminates conflicts between their freights. Arguably, CN's reticence is preventing GO from making use of its capital investment instead of the reverse.
One would think that it would be an equal battle in court....except... we don't know exactly what the comercial terms underneath it all. One wonders if ML is reluctant to reveal what a poor negotiating job they did when all that upgrading was agreed to.
- Paul

 

[Fritter]

sounds like the upgrades to CN's Kingston subdivision that VIA and the Feds paid for a few years ago, that VIA seemingly has had very little benefit from.