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GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

The freeway ends at North Bay. Cochrane was the northern end of the Northlander. North Bay to Cochrane is 375km.

Small towns? Between Sudbury Junction and Winnipeg, the Canadian run by VIA passes through almost empty land. That is for well over 2000km.

So, next excuse, please.
Just in case the point of the comparison is being lost, this was all about the 'lost opportunity to merge GO Transit with ONLR'. They were never similar in purpose or charter, other than having tracks and running trains.

GO's cause d'etre certainly isn't to service vast areas of low density and isolated pockets of civilization...though some suburbs do appear that way at times...
Oh...and GO Transit has the highest 'Farebox Return' of any transit org in North America.

Now getting back to that late GO Express to Wawa...
 
Just in case the point of the comparison is being lost, this was all about the 'lost opportunity to merge GO Transit with ONLR'. They were never similar in purpose or charter, other than having tracks and running trains.

GO's cause d'etre certainly isn't to service vast areas of low density and isolated pockets of civilization...though some suburbs do appear that way at times...
Oh...and GO Transit has the highest 'Farebox Return' of any transit org in North America.

Now getting back to that late GO Express to Wawa...

Merging GO and ONR are more on a government streamlining than much else.

GO would no longer need to Tender bids for refurbishment. ONR could be the express that GO needs. ONR could have been the intercity that this province needs.

Alas, it was cut to save money from a gas plant boondoggle. That Billion Dollars could have easily paid for many more years of ONR passenger service.
 
Not sure if this article from this week has been posted about Niagara GO train service: https://www.niagarathisweek.com/new...al&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

Key line:

"And that helped lead to the announcement that year-round GO Train service would reach Niagara Falls by 2023, he said.

While it may not be visible, work is being done, Percy said.

“We’re on track with the dating we submitted. There’s a lot of work going on behind the scenes.”

Some of that is talks with CN, with which GO will share track.

“I want you to take comfort in knowing those discussions (with CN) are well underway,” he said."
 
Not sure if this article from this week has been posted about Niagara GO train service: https://www.niagarathisweek.com/new...al&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

Key line:

"And that helped lead to the announcement that year-round GO Train service would reach Niagara Falls by 2023, he said.

While it may not be visible, work is being done, Percy said.

“We’re on track with the dating we submitted. There’s a lot of work going on behind the scenes.”

Some of that is talks with CN, with which GO will share track.

“I want you to take comfort in knowing those discussions (with CN) are well underway,” he said."
Couldn't get your link to work, but found what might be the same copy here:
WATCH: GO-ahead given to Niagara
1297240240867_AUTHOR_PHOTO.jpg

By Maryanne Firth, St. Catharines Standard

Wednesday, June 29, 2016 11:12:08 EDT AM
http://www.stcatharinesstandard.ca/2016/06/29/watch-go-ahead-given-to-niagara
 
Great! So then GO would be stuck with uncompetitive bids. The Soviets would be very impressed.
Yes, I could see where you're going with this. Brilliant plan...

You know how the TTC does all the refurbishment of it's fleet in house? That is the same thing.
Go Communist Toronto!
 
The freeway ends at North Bay. Cochrane was the northern end of the Northlander. North Bay to Cochrane is 375km.

Small towns? Between Sudbury Junction and Winnipeg, the Canadian run by VIA passes through almost empty land. That is for well over 2000km.

So, next excuse, please.

There is now a freeway from Toronto to North Bay, there wasn't before. Therefore the billions of dollars have made driving a more competitive option to the train than it was before.

The Canadian? The train whose ridership mostly comes from the fact that it is a global tourist attraction? Good luck getting the same tourism demand on a daytime train to Cochrane as you do on the world-famous transcontinental trip to Vancouver.
 
Apologies try this link:

https://www.niagarathisweek.com/new...al&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

The article is from this past week so more current than the 2016 one.
Actually, just clearing my taskbar, this had gone up, whether redirected from the bad link or from a Google hit that I didn't notice:
‘Bums in seats’ of summer trains could help accelerate GO plans: Percy
Not taking ‘no’ for an answer helped get Niagara on Metrolinx radar, COO tells chamber group
News Apr 21, 2017 04:42 by Richard Hutton Niagara This Week - Niagara Falls
https://www.niagarathisweek.com/new...-trains-could-help-accelerate-go-plans-percy/

And now I compare it, it's the same as what you posted! We just got off the same bus to get there...
 
You know how the TTC does all the refurbishment of it's fleet in house? That is the same thing.
I see, so they don't ship streetcars and trains out on the nation-wide network of TTC gauge track? Damn, clever dem's folks. So now whenever they put out bids for work, they only get one response, and it's not only the lowest, but the highest at the same time.

Very impressive. Now how do they decide which bid to choose? That's the tough part...
 
I see, so they don't ship streetcars and trains out on the nation-wide network of TTC gauge track? Damn, clever dem's folks. So now whenever they put out bids for work, they only get one response, and it's not only the lowest, but the highest at the same time.

Very impressive. Now how do they decide which bid to choose? That's the tough part...

They could put them on flatbed cars like they do to get them delivered.

You do know that GO does not use the same HEP as everyone else?
 
There is now a freeway from Toronto to North Bay, there wasn't before. Therefore the billions of dollars have made driving a more competitive option to the train than it was before.

The air network has grown, too. In the 1980's it existed mostly for government and business travellers. These days, even college students fly home to Timmins.

It's not the strategy that I would have liked - billions in highway and air and nothing in rail - but it is what it is. It will take decades (if ever) for that highway to reach the traffic levels where you need something to offload it.

Putting ONTC into GO would do nothing to help address its internal issues, and would create even more political entanglement than it already has. As for the railway, it's a case of fading into black. Traffic is down (so many mines and mills have closed). Maintaining 400 miles of track (I'm counting the Newmarket Sub north of Washago in that) to passenger standards is not justifiable even if you could fill one passenger train a day each way. Since the passenger train died, track speeds have been lowered.

The rebuild shop in North Bay is hopelessly uncompetitive on the North American market. But so long as GO has such a big fleet, and such a big rebuilding program, it would be a suicidal political task to shut it down. ONTC is one of the last bastions of the middle class blue collar workforce in parts of the boom-or-bust North (their salaries can be inspected on the Sunshine List, by the way) and so maybe it's not a bad economic stimulus, even if it's an artificial stimulus.

- Paul
 
Sunshine list salaries in North Bay would live like kings. Real estate is dirt cheap, you could buy a mansion and 2 luxury cars and still put down significant money for retirement. That is if you weren't already covered by a pension.
 
And GO isn't charged similarly? So, why is CN so recalcitrant?

GO is using a relatively smaller portion of their network where an excess of capacity already exists. GO's trains run slower, and thus interface with the freight schedules better. VIA uses a far bigger portion of their network, and trying to weave their trains between the freights reeks havok on their own runs.

Come on, we know the same guys. We know what they say about the VIA's. Have you ever heard them say the same in the same quantities about the GO's?

Dan, don't forget the "fixed cost included" versus "variable costs only" debates of the 1980's. That led to a formula that is somewhere in between. We don't know what today's formula is, because no one will describe it publicly..... but it is said to be considerably less than full fixed costs, let alone full return-on-capital.

That's true, and to be honest it's something I can't account for beyond simple word of mouth. But the feeling at VIA's head office is that they are still getting taken for a ride by CN.

According to the Auditor General's report, VIA completed only 70km of a planned 160 km triple tracking. That's a lot less than plan.

- Paul

I remember that report, and I remember the original announcement. Do you also remember how vague it was about what was going to be built? I also remember the follow-up announcement when the shovels were about to hit the ground - I still have a copy of it somewhere - and the follow-up was a lot more specific on details and a less generous about what was going to be possible for the money. And to be honest, they didn't even meet the follow-up, but they were also a hell of a lot closer to what actually happened.

Actually, the train was doing well towards the end. The problem was the schedule. They don't run on Sundays.

I'm well aware - I took it a fair number of times. The schedule had very, very little to do with it.

And that doesn't change the fact that ONTC did themselves no favours. You don't continue to maintain jointed rail laid 70 years ago to allow you to run at 60mph or more when you can replace it with CWR and cut your maintenance requirements by half or more. You don't continue to run trains with staffing arrangements that were seemingly created in the 1950s simply because "that's how we've always done it". You can't operate a maintenance division for outside work and then continue to lose money on the contracts that you win.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.
 
GO is using a relatively smaller portion of their network where an excess of capacity already exists. GO's trains run slower, and thus interface with the freight schedules better. VIA uses a far bigger portion of their network, and trying to weave their trains between the freights reeks havok on their own runs.
Come on, we know the same guys. We know what they say about the VIA's. Have you ever heard them say the same in the same quantities about the GO's?

We're saying the same thing, I just said it inside out. Why is CN so recalcitrant about GO Halwest-Silver when they are "happy" (a relative term) to handle VIA to the extent that they are Toronto-Montreal? It certainly isn't about dispatching or track capacity, CN has more of that on the halton than they did pre-GO.

That's true, and to be honest it's something I can't account for beyond simple word of mouth. But the feeling at VIA's head office is that they are still getting taken for a ride by CN.

I think the times have changed on this one, and VIA needs to face that. The current VIA formula (whatever it is) is supposedly still somewhat based on the theory that VIA/GO is only using excess capacity so only needs to pay for is avoidable costs, ie anything that will still be there if VIA leaves is CN's cost.

Between Toronto-Brockville, VIA's use of CN's assets is now so intensive that CN has every right to ask why their capital is used in this way. As I have commented before, if VIA came off the Kingston Sub in entirety, CN would likely look closely at the economics of single tracking some of it. They have capital tied up that VIA uses, but CN doesn't need.

VIA may feel it is overcharged for value received, but CN probably feels it is just using creative accounting to reach a fairer formula. Operationally, "those guys" tell me they leave the super-long freights on the straight track and weave the VIA's around them. The VIA guys say they are constantly the ones facing the delays, because each slowdown for a crossover costs a few minutes. They are correct. Again, that speaks to just how many VIA's there are out there these days.

I have a feeling that the Halwest-Silver issue is only about the money. CN may have felt that this is the right time to stand its ground. And they may feel that GO has "moved into the basement" - ie now treats the line as their own, expecting to make intensive use of it, whereas on a CN-invested vs GO-invested basis CN is still the majority partner.

It may be time for a new formula (or maybe it's already there, we just don't know it) that accounts for the capital that each party is investing in the line and allocates cost and reward accordingly. That kind of "partnership" formula will be hotly opposed by CN/CP, even if it's better financially than today - because, fundamentally, they own the line and want to do as they please.

I remember that report, and I remember the original announcement. Do you also remember how vague it was about what was going to be built? I also remember the follow-up announcement when the shovels were about to hit the ground - I still have a copy of it somewhere - and the follow-up was a lot more specific on details and a less generous about what was going to be possible for the money. And to be honest, they didn't even meet the follow-up, but they were also a hell of a lot closer to what actually happened.

Somewhere I have the track maps from the 'eventual' announcement. The original announcement was political and as usual promised the stars and the moon. The 'eventual' was pretty specific.

What I recall those "same guys we know" saying is that VIA was in over its head from day one. VIA had no real expertise in construction project planning or execution, and the government wanted quick impact. So they rushed the work ahead without doing sufficient engineering design and without fully understanding field conditions. VIA had little experience in managing contractors (who in turn used subcontractors). That is a recipe for disaster in any infrastructure project. Sure enough, the contractor went ahead (as VIA asked them to), ran into problems, and VIA did not have the project management expertise to pull the contractor or subs back before a lot of money got burned with nothing to show for it.

I recall people at the time saying how little was getting done in the field and how the contractor was still out there long after the schedule said the work would be finished.

The A-G seems to have confirmed what our guys were saying all along.

And that doesn't change the fact that ONTC did themselves no favours. You don't continue to maintain jointed rail laid 70 years ago to allow you to run at 60mph or more when you can replace it with CWR and cut your maintenance requirements by half or more. You don't continue to run trains with staffing arrangements that were seemingly created in the 1950s simply because "that's how we've always done it". You can't operate a maintenance division for outside work and then continue to lose money on the contracts that you win.

People who look at the Northlander in isolation don't appreciate the big picture. ONTC was an old-style Ontario Government agency, founded to deliver economic development to the North. It was run just like the old Ontario Hydro (and other government agencies of the day - MTO, LCBO, etc etc) . Big unions, programmatic management as opposed to bottom line management, employment and labour compensation hugely over labour market conditions. There was a day when public sector wages were intended to deliver signals to private enterprise, now not so. (ONTC's pension plan deficit was a huge concern.... had the same money that was put into shoring up the pension plan been put into economic development up north, we would have a bunch of stuff going on up there!)..

Ontario has successfully moved away from this model in other places, but thanks to politics ONTC has fought a lot of this off - folks up there are still in denial today. The passenger train is just one little skirmish in all that.

- Paul
 
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