DavidH
Senior Member
Agreed, but it seems unlikely to happen, unless the government buys out SNC Lavalin.
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GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)
- Thread starter drum118
- Start date
Dan416
Senior Member
I'm kinda doubtful about the price ($160 MILLION? Really?), but I do think it's necessary that GO buy corridors like these. I wonder how many freight runs go along the Milton line? I don't see a whole lot of freight trains use it. I hope Milton is next on GO's list to buy.
drum118
Superstar
30-50 trains with most movement taking place at night.
This is CP main line to the US West and cannot see CP selling it. CP have said for decades that UP would end up using the corridor, but with the merging of RR these past 10, cannot see that happening.
With GO adding 1-2 tracks to this corridor up to Milton will handle GO needs.
The current corridor is 2 tracks with 3 tracks between Confederation Dr to north of Eglinton Ave. There is 3 tracks at Kipling.
To take the line west of Milton becomes more trickery as it next to the escarpment that is single track. You may get 3 tracks in this area. You are going to have the same problem going into Cambridge.
ShonTron
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CP will not give up the Galt Sub - it's their only corridor to Western Ontario, Buffalo (via the Hamilton Sub from Guelph Junction) and the US Midwest (via the Detroit tunnel).
The solution really is to build a new shared freight railway between Halwest (near Bramalea GO, where the Weston Sub meets the York Sub) and near Lisgar Station - the 407/Hydro ROW is perfect. CN would move all of its freights (except the Brampton shunts and the GEXR runs) off the Bramalea-Georgetown lines, and CP would move out of Lambton Yard (selling the real estate for $$$) and expand its Trafalgar Road yards. CN and CP would share the CP Lisgar-Milton tracks, expanded to take hourly GO service and all freights, and the CN York Sub (also expanded) to north of Agincourt.
What this means is that both the Georgetown and Milton lines could have practically unlimited passenger rail service with minimal freight disruptions.
The solution really is to build a new shared freight railway between Halwest (near Bramalea GO, where the Weston Sub meets the York Sub) and near Lisgar Station - the 407/Hydro ROW is perfect. CN would move all of its freights (except the Brampton shunts and the GEXR runs) off the Bramalea-Georgetown lines, and CP would move out of Lambton Yard (selling the real estate for $$$) and expand its Trafalgar Road yards. CN and CP would share the CP Lisgar-Milton tracks, expanded to take hourly GO service and all freights, and the CN York Sub (also expanded) to north of Agincourt.
What this means is that both the Georgetown and Milton lines could have practically unlimited passenger rail service with minimal freight disruptions.
Dan416
Senior Member
Sounds reasonable. Is this just your idea or have CN/CP looked into this? Have you suggested it to them?
TOareaFan
Superstar
Do we know how much rent they pay? How many years' rent does $160 million represent? Surely the value of this should be no more than the present value (discounted at a reasonable rate of return) of "X" years of payments?
Without knowing the annual rent, it really is impossible to say if this is a good deal.
vegeta_skyline
Senior Member
For the amount of service that GO transit will run on those tracks its a great deal. It takes CN completely out of the picture. While CN will retain 'running right' on the corridor for those 3 trains, it will be under GO's jurisdiction meaning they'll only be permitted to do so only when GO allows it and that will be at night and not during the day time when they would presented a potential source of regular delays to all-day trains running on the corridor.
Aside from that GO transit is going to invest a huge amount of money into this corridor, it only makes complete sense for them to own that investment.
All the track upgrades on the Lakeshore corridor have been paid for by GO transit, and yet the ownership of the corridor still belongs to CN. Who was quite content to do nothing to improve the line and spent only the minimal amount of funds necessary to maintain it. Yet they stand to benefit from these track upgrades that they didn't pay for as well and at the same time they retain full control. They scored a quite the coup on that one if you ask me. It would make absolutely no sense for GO transit to repeat that on an even greater scale on the Weston sub.
Also this sets a precedent and a bargaining point for future corridor purchases.
160 million for 17 miles
Next up should be the Kingston sub (Lakeshore East) from Union to Durham Jct. where the Kinston sub connects with the GO sub.
19 miles
And then the Oakville sub (Lakeshore West) from Union to Burlington West where it connects with the Halton sub just east of Burlington station.
32.2 miles
A little over 51 miles of track in total - 3 times that of the Weston sub. Though no doubt the price for this will exceed 3 times that of the Weston sub simply because CN uses this corridor more frequently than the Weston sub and there are many more tracks already in place. However it is not their 'main line' (That being the Halton & York subs) so it should be more than possible, with CN retaining running rights of course, and that should be only at night.
This is the rail corridor in the GTA now (old map doesn't show the recent extension to Barrie);
and this is how it should be sometime in the future;
With GO in green & CN/CP shared track in blue, perhaps after a merger... There was a lot of talk about that in the past, I'm sure if the current economic situation continues to deteriorate there will be talk about it in the future. In the GTA alone, layoffs have reached 15-20% of all running trade employees in both companies. Because of the downturn, freight volumes have dramatically decreased and it may not be economically for the freight companies to retain ownership of tracks that are expensive to maintain and yet are not vital for the company to function (i.e. the aforementioned portions of the Oakville & Kingston sub's). If theres one positive to this economic downturn for the GTA its the potential for the creation of a true regional transit system, one that would be the envy of North America and something that would give us an economic advantage. As someone who runs GO trains for a living, I can't wait to see all these future developments unfold.
Aside from that GO transit is going to invest a huge amount of money into this corridor, it only makes complete sense for them to own that investment.
All the track upgrades on the Lakeshore corridor have been paid for by GO transit, and yet the ownership of the corridor still belongs to CN. Who was quite content to do nothing to improve the line and spent only the minimal amount of funds necessary to maintain it. Yet they stand to benefit from these track upgrades that they didn't pay for as well and at the same time they retain full control. They scored a quite the coup on that one if you ask me. It would make absolutely no sense for GO transit to repeat that on an even greater scale on the Weston sub.
Also this sets a precedent and a bargaining point for future corridor purchases.
160 million for 17 miles
Next up should be the Kingston sub (Lakeshore East) from Union to Durham Jct. where the Kinston sub connects with the GO sub.
19 miles
And then the Oakville sub (Lakeshore West) from Union to Burlington West where it connects with the Halton sub just east of Burlington station.
32.2 miles
A little over 51 miles of track in total - 3 times that of the Weston sub. Though no doubt the price for this will exceed 3 times that of the Weston sub simply because CN uses this corridor more frequently than the Weston sub and there are many more tracks already in place. However it is not their 'main line' (That being the Halton & York subs) so it should be more than possible, with CN retaining running rights of course, and that should be only at night.
This is the rail corridor in the GTA now (old map doesn't show the recent extension to Barrie);
and this is how it should be sometime in the future;
With GO in green & CN/CP shared track in blue, perhaps after a merger... There was a lot of talk about that in the past, I'm sure if the current economic situation continues to deteriorate there will be talk about it in the future. In the GTA alone, layoffs have reached 15-20% of all running trade employees in both companies. Because of the downturn, freight volumes have dramatically decreased and it may not be economically for the freight companies to retain ownership of tracks that are expensive to maintain and yet are not vital for the company to function (i.e. the aforementioned portions of the Oakville & Kingston sub's). If theres one positive to this economic downturn for the GTA its the potential for the creation of a true regional transit system, one that would be the envy of North America and something that would give us an economic advantage. As someone who runs GO trains for a living, I can't wait to see all these future developments unfold.
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dunkalunk
Senior Member
The only major problem I see with Vegeta's vision is in the west of Milton. A proper wye would need to be built to allow trains from the CN to CP trackage.
I would suggest a bypass of Milton to the south of Derry Road, however, recent suburban development has made this option impractical compared with wye construction using an abandoned rail corridor adjacent to parkland.
GO owning trackage should also make it easier for the line to be electrified.
Eventually, I can see the Weston, Oakville, and Kingston subdivisions designated as the urban portions of high speed rail corridors. The Oakville sub and parts of the Weston sub are already straight enough that with upgrades it could easily handle trains operating at 300km/h (whether or not other competing with slower trains makes this possible is another matter).
I would suggest a bypass of Milton to the south of Derry Road, however, recent suburban development has made this option impractical compared with wye construction using an abandoned rail corridor adjacent to parkland.
GO owning trackage should also make it easier for the line to be electrified.
Eventually, I can see the Weston, Oakville, and Kingston subdivisions designated as the urban portions of high speed rail corridors. The Oakville sub and parts of the Weston sub are already straight enough that with upgrades it could easily handle trains operating at 300km/h (whether or not other competing with slower trains makes this possible is another matter).
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lordmandeep
Banned
GO train should go to Bolton...
Nice way to connect Vaughan and Brampton North to Go Transit.
Nice way to connect Vaughan and Brampton North to Go Transit.
TOareaFan
Superstar
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The press release does not say that, though, it just says the 3 trains will continue to run.
Besides, it is only 3 trains....how much bother coudl they cause? $160 million to control when 3 trains run....wow!
To the people this serves (passengers) do they care who owns it or do they only care that the investment creates more/more convenient transit options? The alternative way to look at it, is that there is now $160 million less to spend on achieving that goal.
Proving the point....without owning the tracks/corridor, GO has been able to fulfill its mandate....lots of trains run along the lakeshore every day......each way........increasing to 30 minute frequencies....without owning the track!
Put your CN hat on......today's discussion at HQ "Charlesfort (made up name) I read you did a deal yesterday...what was it?" ...answ "You know that track we run 3 trains on in NW Toronto.....we are still going to run the same 3 trains but GO paid us $160 million dollars and threatened to build more tracks there at their expense....so th trains should run better too....sorry I did not ask for approval first but it seemed a bit of a no-brainer!"
It may be a great deal...but you are right, it does set a precedent. If it is a great deal, GO should have no problem giving us all of the details (not just the cost and length of track but things like how much it will save in operating budget (track rental) over the next, say, 20 years)....then we can actually judge the value of this deal.
Perhaps the most surprising thing to me was that GO and VIA run "46 trains per day over the line".....some time ago I created a spreadsheet schedule for myself which combined all of the GO/VIA departures that get me back to the Brampton station from Union....it combines buses and trains but when I count my weekday train options only (including the trains that only go to Bramalea and I switch to a bus) I can only come up with 27 GO/VIA trains.....where are the other 19?
tapper of spines
New Member
Do you know if the replacement bridge will have room for two tracks? Not that they'll be putting in two tracks now, but it only makes sense to have room for two for the day when do have double track all the way up. The current bridge only has room for a single track.
TOS
nfitz
Superstar
You also have to consider that the government is dropping $billions on various industries to prop them up during the recession. Such a payment could also be considered in that light - and at least they get something for the $ here ...
TOareaFan
Superstar
That is highly possible...this could be a back-door way of giving CN a subsidy.....if it is they should just say that.
Again, I am not saying this deal is either good or bad....I am just saying there is no where near enough information in that press release to make that judgement.
nfitz
Superstar
They would be crazy to ever say that - as then you get into all sorts of trade issues, etc. And no one may have even discussed that ... clearly GO wants the track, CN had them, and there are precious few assets that CN could sell at the best of times, particularly during a recession. This is a great deal for everyone - especially for the cost of a couple of subway stations (stations, not tunnels and tracks ...).
TOareaFan
Superstar
You either:
1. Are way smarter than me
2. Have information not available to me
Otherwise I have no idea how I could declare this a good or bad deal without knowing how much cost it is going to eliminate. If the rent that GO was paying CN for this bit of track was $50 million then I agree, this is a terrific deal and GO should do more of them. If the rent was, say, $1 million a year....GO has just frittered away $160 million of valuable capital that could be used to do other things and will take 160 years to recover the investment.
The truth probably lies between those figures but without knowing that side of the equation I don't think you can judge this deal.
Oh, btw, any government anywhere can offer/give subsidies to any industry these days....it is the new norm......no government need hide a bailout....in fact, from a gaining votes perspective, I imagine they are out there hunting down job saving/creating bailouts....it is what the public wants!!!!