GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

[Northern Light]

The reason that most rail operators limit bikes on board (via a surcharge and/or time-of-day restrictions) is that bikes are very space-intensive. For the space of one paying customer with a bike, you could carry 2 or 3 paying customers without bikes.

For this reason, bringing a bike aboard cannot be scaled up to become a viable solution to the last-mile problem. The viable bicycle-based solutions for the last mile at the destination end are bikeshare and/or secure storage for a second bike. Union already has tons of bikeshare capacity, so I think that solution is pretty well covered. Union also has a secure indoor bicycle parking garage with 168 secure bicycle parking spaces, but the 48h maximum stay in the garage makes it impractical for storing a desination-end bike unless you commute downtown every single day. Increasing that maximum stay would make destination-end parking far more attractive by giving people the option to miss a couple days at work without getting a parking fine on their bike.

Toronto Bicycle Parking Garage Terms of Use
View attachment 423634

Not to side track the thread, but does anyone know off hand what the utilization rate for the Union Station secure bike parking is/was?

I'm curious if they were at/near capacity, or not, and if they were, what level of latent demand may be unmet.

I also wonder, in light of the apparent demand for cycling in Niagara, if the business case for Bikeshare Niagara is being made.

 

[SaugeenJunction]

It’s Monday. The current GO schedules end on Friday. New schedules still aren’t up. What the heck is going on at GO/Metrolinx?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1564267615169683457

 

[LNahid2000]

It’s Monday. The current GO schedules end on Friday. New schedules still aren’t up. What the heck is going on at GO/Metrolinx?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1564267615169683457

I love how the person in the thread is trying to get a ride now because they have no idea when the last train will be.

 

[SaugeenJunction]

Found this tweet from the 20th saying new schedules coming August 24th. Clearly some big issues at GO, maybe staffing related?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1561012575206350848

 

[reaperexpress]

Not to side track the thread, but does anyone know off hand what the utilization rate for the Union Station secure bike parking is/was?

I'm curious if they were at/near capacity, or not, and if they were, what level of latent demand may be unmet.

I was just wondering this myself. Ideally they'd set the prices and maximum stay at the garage such that it is 90-95% full at the busiest moment.

The website says that Union has a single garage with 168 spaces, which is the new one on York Street north of the railway underpass.

New bike parking garage, on York just north of the underpass.

But prior to the renovation, there was already garage in the underpass immediately south of the new one, with a total of (IIRC) around 140 spaces. I thought the new garage was going to be in addition to the old garage (for a total of ~300 spaces), but based on the website seems that it has simply replaced the old garage, producing barely any increase in capacity.

Old parking garage in the underpass near tracks 24-27

In this 2019 image there still appear to be some bikes in the old garage, though most of the bikes are parked outside of it, probably due to the high parking fees and short maximum stay.

Meanwhile, in my city here in the Netherlands (Delft), there are 10,000 secure and weather protected spaces, divided among 3 garages. Access is via a subsurface level of bicycle paths which pass under car/bus/pedestrian routes. Parking is completely free, and the maximum stay is 14 to 28 days depending on the garage.

I briefly show the Delft Station bike parking at 0:28 in this video:

Admittedly the parking restrictions in Delft are unusually generous though, even by Dutch standards. Typically a Dutch station's main (most convenient) garage will have paid parking, but the first 24h is free. Payment is via OV Chipkaart (Dutch Presto Card). Longer term parking would be available for free up to 28 days at another less conveniently-located garage.

I also wonder, in light of the apparent demand for cycling in Niagara, if the business case for Bikeshare Niagara is being made.

Bikeshare Niagara definitely seems like promising concept. But I think the first order of business is to fix up the bike networks in Niagara Falls and environs. For all the advertising that Niagara Region does for cycle tourism, their cycling infrastructure is actually really poor. Which is especially frustrating given that there are so many conveniently-located hydro corridors, abandoned railways and surplus road ROW space which could easily accommodate bicycle paths.

 

[felix123]

Meanwhile, in my city here in the Netherlands (Delft), there are 10,000 secure and weather protected spaces, divided among 3 garages. Access is via a subsurface level of bicycle paths which pass under car/bus/pedestrian routes. Parking is completely free, and the maximum stay is 14 to 28 days depending on the garage.

I would like to have better bike parking at GO stations, and I was with you on the rest of the post but how is this train station in a charming Dutch town relevant to the discussion?
But since we're off-topic anyway, if anyone wants to feel especially bad about our infrastructure as it compares to that of the Netherlands and condescended to at the same time, I would recommend the 'Not Just Bikes' videos on YouTube.

 

[Northern Light]

I would like to have better bike parking at GO stations, and I was with you on the rest of the post but how is this train station in a charming Dutch town relevant to the discussion?
But since we're off-topic anyway, if anyone wants to feel especially bad about our infrastructure as it compares to that of the Netherlands and condescended to at the same time, I would recommend the 'Not Just Bikes' videos on YouTube.

Aside from the fact that @reaperexpress is currently based in that part of the world; I think its an entirely apt comparison to ask what we could be doing better; to consider different options in policy, scale, and in price to induce a greater level of cycling in the Golden Horseshoe.

 

[SashaLemon]

Union Station is going to need much more bike parking. I mean its kind of embarrassing when there is a long list of condo buildings with more spots then your central station.
Need more parking at all TTC and GO stations as well.

 

[Richard White]

Union Station is going to need much more bike parking. I mean its kind of embarrassing when there is a long list of condo buildings with more spots then your central station.
Need more parking at all TTC and GO stations as well.

It depends on the TTC station really. Some don't have the space for it, namely those downtown which are in office towers.

Other stations like Kennedy, Royal York, Spadina (Kendal) or Lawrence are good candidates, Stations like St Clair, Sheppard, St Clair West or even Yorkdale do not have the space for bicycle parking.

GO stations are a mixed bag, some are rather small (think Exhibition, St Catherines) and would not have a good place for bicycle parking.

Acton GO is another example of limited space for parking. It is worth the drive to Acton...

 

[reaperexpress]

Union Station is going to need much more bike parking. I mean its kind of embarrassing when there is a long list of condo buildings with more spots then your central station.
Need more parking at all TTC and GO stations as well.

This is true. Toronto's zoning requires at least 1 indoor bike parking space per unit (and they rarely approve variances on that number) so every new condo building with more than 168 units will have a bigger bike parking garage than Union station.

I would like to have better bike parking at GO stations, and I was with you on the rest of the post but how is this train station in a charming Dutch town relevant to the discussion?

The relevance is that it is an illustration
of what sort of bicycle parking GO could potentially be providing at railway stations. Admittedly Delft Station is a lot smaller than Union station. A more apt comparison would have been Utrecht Centraal, which has about the same ridership as Union, and has two garages with over 50,000 secure indoor bicycle parking spaces, of which 30,000 are in this garage alone:

 

[felix123]

Aside from the fact that @reaperexpress is currently based in that part of the world; I think its an entirely apt comparison to ask what we could be doing better; to consider different options in policy, scale, and in price to induce a greater level of cycling in the Golden Horseshoe.

I agree that we need better bike parking at GO stations. Comparing Union to Delft isn't realistic, as the space around Union is far more valuable, but I don't think that should hold anyone back from positing a better solution, and yes we could follow some of the better practices used in the Netherlands.
I would absolutely support a 10k, free for 24 hour bike parking option at Union nevertheless.

On the other hand, I'm just a bit salty because the same poster shot down my pipe dream for being irrelevant to Toronto a few posts ago, but then posted their own pipe dream right after. So you can bet I'm gonna call it out as irrelevant too

 

[Northern Light]

I agree that we need better bike parking at GO stations. Comparing Union to Delft isn't realistic, as the space around Union is far more valuable, but I don't think that should hold anyone back from positing a better solution, and yes we could follow some of the better practices used in the Netherlands.

Sure, though, I think @reaperexpress acknowledged that the situation there was generous even by the standards of The Netherlands.

I would hasten to add, we dedicate alot of that very expensive/valuable land around Union to parking (underground).

I wonder what the utilization rate for parking at Maple Leaf Square is; and whether any portion of their facility might be re-purposed to cycling storage for Union, obviously in exchange for the purchase/lease of said space.

What price could be provided to cyclists would obviously depend on what it cost to acquire and maintain such space.

Presuming one didn't want to send cyclists up/down the parking ramps, there would need to be adequate high-volume elevator capacity available.

I would absolutely support a 10k, free for 24 hour bike parking option at Union nevertheless.

I would too.

On the other hand, I'm just a bit salty because the same poster shot down my pipe dream for being irrelevant to Toronto a few posts ago, but then posted their own pipe dream right after. So you can bet I'm gonna call it out as irrelevant too

I don't think he was mean about it; I think he had a fair point. But you were equally fair in noting that the current situation is ridiculous, its just a matter of coming up with a solution of appropriate scale/cost, given the likely demand 2 years out.

 

[SashaLemon]

Since the TPA also runs Toronto Bike Share, they are the organization best suited to deal with high volume indoor bike storage. The closest to Union is Carpark 52. I don't think this has PATH access however.

 

[reaperexpress]

I agree that we need better bike parking at GO stations. Comparing Union to Delft isn't realistic, as the space around Union is far more valuable, but I don't think that should hold anyone back from positing a better solution, and yes we could follow some of the better practices used in the Netherlands.
I would absolutely support a 10k, free for 24 hour bike parking option at Union nevertheless.

The land around Utrecht and Delft stations is extremely valuable, not quite downtown Toronto levels but pretty darn close. Hence why the garages are underground.

Garage 1 at Delft is located underground in the cut and cover station, directly above the tracks. That's not developable space.

Garage 2 is located under a park. Again, not developable space.

Garage 3 is under a condo. That space most likely did increase the construction cost of that new building, but that's unrelated to land value.

Garage 1 was the only one built as part of the station itself. Garages 2 and 3 were added later on adjacent lots because the existing parking was overflowing.

The garages at Utrecht Centraal are under public squares.

On the other hand, I'm just a bit salty because the same poster shot down my pipe dream for being irrelevant to Toronto a few posts ago, but then posted their own pipe dream right after. So you can bet I'm gonna call it out as irrelevant too

I never said we should build a 10k or 30k space bike parking garage at Union anytime soon. Simply enlarging a garage does not in itself do anything to make cycling more attractive, unless the current garage is approaching capacity (which it is not).

I posted that reference material to illustrate what a convenient parking facility is like, and emphasize that bicycles could potentially play a much larger role in last-mile transportation if the parking prices and policies were more generous, and the cycling infrastructure were higher quality. If Delft (pop 103k) can fill 10000 spaces then surely Toronto (pop 2790k) should have no trouble filling 300 spaces.

The actual action items I'm requesting are for Union station are:
- ensure that all 300 existing spaces are available for use, not just the 168 in the new garage, and
- adjust the pricing structure and maximum stay such that nearly all of those 300 spaces are utilized.

 

[11th]

The land around Utrecht and Delft stations is extremely valuable, not quite downtown Toronto levels but pretty darn close. Hence why the garages are underground.

Garage 1 at Delft is located underground in the cut and cover station, directly above the tracks. That's not developable space.
View attachment 423691
Garage 2 is located under a park. Again, not developable space.

Garage 3 is under a condo. That space most likely did increase the construction cost of that new building, but that's unrelated to land value.

Garage 1 was the only one built as part of the station itself. Garages 2 and 3 were added later on adjacent lots because the existing parking was overflowing.

The garages at Utrecht Centraal are under public squares.


I never said we should build a 10k or 30k space bike parking garage at Union anytime soon. Simply enlarging a garage does not in itself do anything to make cycling more attractive, unless the current garage is approaching capacity (which it is not).

I posted that reference material to illustrate what a convenient parking facility is like, and emphasize that bicycles could potentially play a much larger role in last-mile transportation if the parking prices and policies were more generous, and the cycling infrastructure were higher quality. If Delft (pop 103k) can fill 10000 spaces then surely Toronto (pop 2790k) should have no trouble filling 300 spaces.

The actual action items I'm requesting are for Union station are:
- ensure that all 300 existing spaces are available for use, not just the 168 in the new garage, and
- adjust the pricing structure and maximum stay such that nearly all of those 300 spaces are utilized.

Unrelated note, but that should be the way Metrolinx denote exits at their stations - not repurposing the running man emergency exit sign.