GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

[DKsan]

The Aberfoyle stop is such a time suck. Cutting that stop alone would save 8-10 minutes each way.

I’d also argue that there’s no need for both a Cambridge DumbCentres stop and a Sportsworld stop. Pick one, and eliminate the other.

There. I just saved 15 minutes off the Route 25.

The Milton park-and-ride location isn’t great, especially as the local transit connection is quite poor (just the Route 1, which serves employment lands). But I see its utility. The two Transitway stops at Erin Mills and WCB are not an easy on and off Highway 403, thanks largely to it being value-engineered to the point of near-uselessness.

It really needs to be split into three routes, because the 25 is doing the heavy lifting for three different demographics.

1. UW > WLU > towards Mississauga: Heavy student focus
2. Kitchener Terminal > Sportsworld > toward Mississauga: For KW locals
3. Ainslie Terminal > Cambridge Centre Terminal > towards Mississauga: For Cambridge locals and UW Architecture students.

They should move the GO terminal at Aberfoyle to south of the 401 (there's already a carpool lot there! Why weren't these consolidated?!), and maybe they can make a DT Kitchener > Breslau > Guelph Centre > u Guelph > Aberfoyle route).

 

[jamincan]

I assume that train is one of the ones stored at Shirley yard in the east end of Kitchener, so going out of service in Guelph allows it to avoid going into downtown Kitchener at all.

It's also interesting to note that there are 7 morning departures from Kitchener even though there are only 6 overnight storage spots (2 west of the station and 4 east). I assume that some of the trains are committed to remain 6-car sets so they can double up in a single 12-car storage track.

Do they hook the train up to power overnight? It appears that way from Google satellite view, but I could be mistaken. Would they be able to do that with 2 six car trains in one storage track?

 

[ShonTron]

It really needs to be split into three routes, because the 25 is doing the heavy lifting for three different demographics.

1. UW > WLU > towards Mississauga: Heavy student focus
2. Kitchener Terminal > Sportsworld > toward Mississauga: For KW locals
3. Ainslie Terminal > Cambridge Centre Terminal > towards Mississauga: For Cambridge locals and UW Architecture students.

They should move the GO terminal at Aberfoyle to south of the 401 (there's already a carpool lot there! Why weren't these consolidated?!), and maybe they can make a DT Kitchener > Breslau > Guelph Centre > u Guelph > Aberfoyle route).

Don’t stop that last route at Aberfoyle! Run it down to Aldershot.

 

[jamincan]

My work is just off the 401 between Mississauga Rd. and Winston Churchill, and I live in Kitchener. When I started working there, the options for using GO were simply not tenable for me, but I noticed that Rt 30 stops at the Meadowvale Business Park, which makes the route actually plausible to use. Out of curiousity, I checked how much it would cost... and it would be $460/mo. I know GO is more expensive than local transit and I was familiar with single ride fares being substantially higher than local transit, but that monthly cost seems astronomical to me.

 

[crs1026]

My work is just off the 401 between Mississauga Rd. and Winston Churchill, and I live in Kitchener. When I started working there, the options for using GO were simply not tenable for me, but I noticed that Rt 30 stops at the Meadowvale Business Park, which makes the route actually plausible to use. Out of curiousity, I checked how much it would cost... and it would be $460/mo. I know GO is more expensive than local transit and I was familiar with single ride fares being substantially higher than local transit, but that monthly cost seems astronomical to me.

Numbers always sound impressive in the absolute, but I wonder (rhetorically, I’m not meaning to pry) what the cost of maintaining a vehicle for that commute would be. Easily 100kms per day, let’s say 20 days per month… that’s a goodly amount of gas, oil changes, and tire wear. GO may be the more expensive and less efficient option, but I wouldn’t say it’s unrealistic. Long range commutes have their cost.

- Paul

 

[allengeorge]

Numbers always sound impressive in the absolute, but I wonder (rhetorically, I’m not meaning to pry) what the cost of maintaining a vehicle for that commute would be. Easily 100kms per day, let’s say 20 days per month… that’s a goodly amount of gas, oil changes, and tire wear. GO may be the more expensive and less efficient option, but I wouldn’t say it’s unrealistic. Long range commutes have their cost.

While I’m sympathetic to this argument, the issue for most is that they can’t give up their car in the GTA, and the costs you’ve highlighted are seen as sunk costs, or, not associated directly with long-distance commutes (the last two points are why I’m so invested in pushing for tolls as a way to change behavior, because they immediately associate action with cost - just like what we do with transit). At any rate, what many are really trading off is that $460 vs. the perceived cost of their time and aggravation.

The cost comparison is way different and easier in cities like NYC where you can easily live your life without a car, and can compare the cost of a Metrocard ($127) with the financing, insurance and gas for a car as well as the parking hassles.

 

[Northern Light]

While I’m sympathetic to this argument, the issue for most is that they can’t give up their car in the GTA, and the costs you’ve highlighted are seen as sunk costs, or, not associated directly with long-distance commutes (the last two points are why I’m so invested in pushing for tolls as a way to change behavior, because they immediately associate action with cost - just like what we do with transit). At any rate, what many are really trading off is that $460 vs. the perceived cost of their time and aggravation.

The cost comparison is way different and easier in cities like NYC where you can easily live your life without a car, and can compare the cost of a Metrocard ($127) with the financing, insurance and gas for a car as well as the parking hassles.

Great statement.

I think if we a society deem that a higher modal shift to transit is desirable for a host of reasons (as most here, myself included do) then we need to think of people shifting by looking at benchmarks.
Benchmarks are comparing first and foremost, travel time and price between modes and understanding that both should be competitive and one should be better for transit if you want people to shift.

Which of those two is better may differ by route.

But if you want me to take an extra 30 minutes to get to work........I'd better be saving some serious $$
If I'm paying extra $$ to commute by transit, I'd better by flying by that traffic on the highway.

*****

In Toronto, I look at that and think the minimum toll for using a highway should be the lowest GO transit fare ($3.70, I believe)
You then apply additional distance charges.

At the same time, parking needs to have a cost, no matter where you park.

But it can't be all stick, cross-boarder trips (Regional) by rail, GO Bus or 2 or more local systems needs to cost less.
Service needs to be more frequent/convenient and trip times lower.

 

[Tristen]

At the same time, parking needs to have a cost, no matter where you park.

If Toronto tax all parking space at $1/day, that is enough for TTC to breakeven plus more infrastructure spendings.

 

[sixrings]

If Toronto tax all parking space at $1/day, that is enough for TTC to breakeven plus more infrastructure spendings.

Even at my home?

 

[Tristen]

Even at my home?

There could be, but I think taxing public (commercial) parking is enough for this time.

 

[smallspy]

Do they hook the train up to power overnight?

Yes. Not only does this help with fuel use, but plugging into the wayside also activates a security system onboard the equipment.

It appears that way from Google satellite view, but I could be mistaken. Would they be able to do that with 2 six car trains in one storage track?

Shirley Yard was designed with 12-car trainsets in mind, and can store 4 of them.

But as several of the tracks are longer than strictly needed for a 12-car train. yes, they can double up a pair of 6-car trains on at least one of the tracks.

Dan

 

[innsertnamehere]

Numbers always sound impressive in the absolute, but I wonder (rhetorically, I’m not meaning to pry) what the cost of maintaining a vehicle for that commute would be. Easily 100kms per day, let’s say 20 days per month… that’s a goodly amount of gas, oil changes, and tire wear. GO may be the more expensive and less efficient option, but I wouldn’t say it’s unrealistic. Long range commutes have their cost.

- Paul

GO costs work out if you have to pay for parking at your destination - i.e. downtown, but not in the suburbs where parking is free.

I've done the math on commutes into downtown and if you were to go from, say, Burlington, to downtown, costs work out as such, roughly:

CAR:

$15 - park (optimistic, though possible depending on exact place of work, or if you have a monthly parking pass)
$10 - Gas (assumes 30mpg, 100km commute, $1.30/l gas)
$5 - basic maintenance (includes oil change every 10k km, regular brakes, tire replacement, etc.)

Total: $30

Vs.

GO

$20.70 - Fare
$2 - high assumption for vehicle to travel a few km to GO station

Total: $23


Now remove that $15 parking charge, and driving works out cheaper. I'm not including things like increased depreciation for a vehicle to drive either, which would raise driving's cost, but that's more difficult to calculate as the vehicle would depreciate regardless of if you took GO or drove all the way, just at a slower rate.

GO really isn't cheap - but driving isn't either, so it generally works as a wash.

Now if you could carpool, that's how you can really save money..

 

[jamincan]

But as several of the tracks are longer than strictly needed for a 12-car train. yes, they can double up a pair of 6-car trains on at least one of the tracks.

Dan

Do they not plug in the second train, then? Or do they just have a really long extension cord?


Re: cost of GO, I spend about $250/mo on gas now, for commuting and all other driving. I would therefore need to save about $5000/year in maintenance costs/depreciation of my vehicle in order to make it financially worthwhile. I'm not convinced I would personally save that amount, but even if I did, it's not a very compelling sell. To be clear, I'm not presenting an argument about fares or anything, I was just surprised at how high it is.

 

[EnviroTO]

GO costs work out if you have to pay for parking at your destination - i.e. downtown, but not in the suburbs where parking is free.

I think for many the equation is about two household vehicles vs one. Having at least one on the GO means the choice of a single car is feasible.

 

[innsertnamehere]

I think for many the equation is about two household vehicles vs one. Having at least one on the GO means the choice of a single car is feasible.

Even if you take GO, functionally it's challenging to live on one car in the suburbs, especially if both parents work.