smallspy
Senior Member
I first noted the additional filter/muffler on 602 on March 13th of this year. 620 has also sported one since at least September of last year.
Dan
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GO Transit Fleet Equipment and other
- Thread starter drum118
- Start date
I first noted the additional filter/muffler on 602 on March 13th of this year. 620 has also sported one since at least September of last year.
Dan
Kraylin
Active Member
I believe the filters were added as a result of an air quality study suggesting the first couple passengers cars were seeing elevated emissions levels from the locomotives.
ssiguy2
Senior Member
Very true and is nearly always the case in more suburban/RER type systems. Big double levels are fine for standard commuter rail where people get on but all get off at the same station ie Union. RER on the other hand will have vastly more people getting on/off at stations thru-out the system......…...basically it's a subway system with fewer stops but the riders have the same needs. This requires high de/acceleration electric trains and very importantly ones that offer fast boarding/entry which bi-levels most assuredly don't.
steveintoronto
Superstar
The day of the DD being considered superior is passing. Some systems, like the Sydney and Paris RER where DD are run in tunnels are adding a third set of doors mid-coach to expedite dwell time in station. DD are now considered optimal for outer urban longer trip commutes. For RER though, single deck but 'unit-trains' like the TR subway trains carry just as many passengers as conventional DD, but have a much shorter dwell time and accelerate and brake faster due to lower weight per floor area to do it.
The claim is still controversial, but being accepted more, and can use a considerably smaller tunnel to do it.
Here's a very modern Class 717 running third rail (it's a hybrid that also runs on mainline 25kV) through tunnels smaller than TTC subway ones: (4.9m for Great Northern vs. 5.4m + for TTC)
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=class+717+great+northern
ssiguy2
Senior Member
This is one of the reasons why Melbourne phased out it's double levels decades ago...……...they actually can have higher capacity and offer far faster travel times. While Paris runs DD on some of it's RER routes, the analogy with Toronto is not a valid one as Paris already has a huge Metro system for more local trips so people who use Paris RER are very much regional travellers.
DD are also notoriously bad for people in wheelchairs, the elderly, and strollers. People always congregate around the front doors when going shorter distances but those areas are the only ones accessible for people with mobility issues unlike single-level trains. With a fast aging population such concerns will become even more of an issue on suburban/RER systems. This issue doesn't really effect DD commuter rails as there is very little on/off boarding as people are travelling longer distances and hence are vastly more likely to take a seat than a RER system and getting off at a single point ie Union...........the entry areas are only used by people they were designed for, those with mobility issues.
DD are also notoriously bad for people in wheelchairs, the elderly, and strollers. People always congregate around the front doors when going shorter distances but those areas are the only ones accessible for people with mobility issues unlike single-level trains. With a fast aging population such concerns will become even more of an issue on suburban/RER systems. This issue doesn't really effect DD commuter rails as there is very little on/off boarding as people are travelling longer distances and hence are vastly more likely to take a seat than a RER system and getting off at a single point ie Union...........the entry areas are only used by people they were designed for, those with mobility issues.
drum118
Superstar
Since Europe run train sets from 3-11 units that are Mu as 2-3 set doesn't mean GO can't do it as single level cars with next to no labour cost. GO can run a 2-3 pack set at peak time and cut one or two off for off peak since there very little extra idle time hocking them up or cutting them off at X point. There is extra capital cost. You could run a 3 set to either Aldershot or Hamilton where 1 set carries on to Niagara Falls and another to X. They hock up on the return trip to Toronto.
If GO did this like its done in Europe, don't need those accessibly platforms and better access to the cars for everyone. This style comes in different forms for both low or high floor from slide out to fold down. The gap plate for most cases are a lot closer to the platform than this example in Spain.
If GO did this like its done in Europe, don't need those accessibly platforms and better access to the cars for everyone. This style comes in different forms for both low or high floor from slide out to fold down. The gap plate for most cases are a lot closer to the platform than this example in Spain.
steveintoronto
Superstar
You must be confused on the city. Melbourne never had DDs. Sydney did and still does:
But here's why:
- : link above
Here's the 4D proto:
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ssiguy2
Senior Member
Melbourne did have DD like Sydney until the 1970s.
tayser
Active Member
We only ever had a prototype - the 4D (a single 4-car set only) - and it kept on breaking down and had a very very patchy in-service history - starting off by operating as a standalone 4-car set initially and after so many breakdowns it had to be coupled with a 3-car Comeng.
steveintoronto
Superstar
I was hoping you'd catch that. The DD debate is still rabid in Oz, especially in Sydney with the new metro. There's an optimized case for both single and double, but single with lots of doors and walk through unit-trains is now considered best for intra-regional, and DD for inter-regional. This has a huge advantage when utilizing tunnels that would otherwise be considered 'subway bore size'.
Btw: When do we get the Summer you should be finished with by now? We're waiting...
tayser
Active Member
It's pretty much only contained within Sydney - the DD/SD debate. And they just announced over the weekend that Sydney Metro phase 1 (the new single decker automated system) will begin ops on May 28th.
There's going to be argy bargy just after it opens, because the first phase dumps people out on the platforms at Chatswood (which already has packed trains which then head via North Sydney and over the Harbour bridge into the city), however the impact of that has been neutered somewhat because a few years ago the state government got ahead of it all and kicked off phase 2 (which already has TBMs chewing up the ground toward the harbour and city already). There's only going to be a few years of pain (transferring at Chatswood) before the rest of the new line continues under the harbour/through the city and out to the southwest).
The NSW Government also last year begun a programme very similar to the one the VIC gov has been pursuing with existing rail networks: moving to moving block / CBTC signalling (the Melbourne Metro project is bringing that to about 40-50km of existing and new tunnel track) and if I remember correctly, the first line to get that treatment will be the Illawarra (southern) / Eastern suburbs line which will see upgrades to rolling stock, but they'll still be DDs. Once both projects are done in either state it'll be interesting to compare throughputs - Sydney's 8 car DDs versus Melbourne's new 7-car SD "HCMTs".
The only way I see Victoria getting DDs in the future is potentially on regional routes. There's 3 major project moving parts to the west of the city at the moment that relate to a) finally building an airport rail link b) the state government's suburban rail loop proposal and c) extra trackage to fully separate metro and regional services to Geelong and Ballarat (Geelong and Ballarat are to Melbourne what Hamilton and Kitchener/Guelph are to Toronto respectively).
Consensus seems to be moving to another track pair from the centre of town, underground, and whether or not regional services use it, we don't know (they'd have to electrify at least one of the regional lines - probably Geelong - if regional services will use the new track pair) - but overall, the trend is to longer platforms and longer SD trains here, but I wouldn't completely rule out a sub-fleet of DDs as the next gen of 160-200kph regional trains (which is another aim of the state gov, moving regional trains to max speeds of ~200kph - building on the 160kph work that was done last decade).
There's going to be argy bargy just after it opens, because the first phase dumps people out on the platforms at Chatswood (which already has packed trains which then head via North Sydney and over the Harbour bridge into the city), however the impact of that has been neutered somewhat because a few years ago the state government got ahead of it all and kicked off phase 2 (which already has TBMs chewing up the ground toward the harbour and city already). There's only going to be a few years of pain (transferring at Chatswood) before the rest of the new line continues under the harbour/through the city and out to the southwest).
The NSW Government also last year begun a programme very similar to the one the VIC gov has been pursuing with existing rail networks: moving to moving block / CBTC signalling (the Melbourne Metro project is bringing that to about 40-50km of existing and new tunnel track) and if I remember correctly, the first line to get that treatment will be the Illawarra (southern) / Eastern suburbs line which will see upgrades to rolling stock, but they'll still be DDs. Once both projects are done in either state it'll be interesting to compare throughputs - Sydney's 8 car DDs versus Melbourne's new 7-car SD "HCMTs".
The only way I see Victoria getting DDs in the future is potentially on regional routes. There's 3 major project moving parts to the west of the city at the moment that relate to a) finally building an airport rail link b) the state government's suburban rail loop proposal and c) extra trackage to fully separate metro and regional services to Geelong and Ballarat (Geelong and Ballarat are to Melbourne what Hamilton and Kitchener/Guelph are to Toronto respectively).
Consensus seems to be moving to another track pair from the centre of town, underground, and whether or not regional services use it, we don't know (they'd have to electrify at least one of the regional lines - probably Geelong - if regional services will use the new track pair) - but overall, the trend is to longer platforms and longer SD trains here, but I wouldn't completely rule out a sub-fleet of DDs as the next gen of 160-200kph regional trains (which is another aim of the state gov, moving regional trains to max speeds of ~200kph - building on the 160kph work that was done last decade).
steveintoronto
Superstar
Hopefully it will put a lot of endless debate on the matter to rest. Whenever I Google on the subject, Sydney always dominates the first ten hits or so
Is this the one that slices under the downtown loop (whoops..."CBD" loop)? I remember you giving me a heads-up on that months back. It seems Melbourne is also host to some abandoned tunnels down there IIRC.
Gotta tell you I'm really impressed with the 'leading state' of signalling and control as you describe. It compares to the best in Europe right now.
tayser
Active Member
I'll start a catch-all Australian PT thread in next day or two in the rest of the universe section and dump all that info there (rather than pollute these threads) 
steveintoronto
Superstar
See you there.I'll start a catch-all Australian PT thread in next day or two in the rest of the universe section and dump all that info there (rather than pollute these threads)
Woodbridge_Heights
Senior Member
Efficiency of scales. Hauling 1400(+) passengers at $x fare against paying 2 employees (driver and CSR). However all things being equal (same number of passengers in single and bi level cars) I don't know if there is much difference.
Drag from air resistance ramps up pretty quickly, I'm no expert but it goes up much more than you would think.