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GO Transit Electrification | Metrolinx

Hydrogen rail is indeed in it's infancy and there will be some hiccups but the hiccups are not the problem but rather how Toronto deals with them. When SkyTrain first opened it had a lot of small flaws and used the same trains that Toronto is still using. Vancouver, however, decided not to just let the thing rot like Toronto did with it's SRT and instead improved the system and pressured Bombardier to improve the vehicles. In short Vancouver took what was increasingly looking like a lemon and made lemonade. Now SkyTrain has proven itself to be a fast, efficient, comfortable, quiet, reliable, high capacity,, and safe system...……….the hallmarks of great transit.

Toronto may also use the excuse that they have no experience in using hydrogen rail as an excuse to stop it. Toronto however also has no experience running catenary electric trains either. The only electric service GO has experience with are lighbulbs
 
Toronto however also has no experience running catenary electric trains either. The only electric service GO has experience with are lighbulbs

Just out of curiosity, why is this an issue?

Whether the traction power comes from another rail on the ground or above the train is just splitting hairs. There's clearly electrical experience in the current setup you have - the subway, should an electric railway be built in future and it's overhead, the new people who'd need to be brought on for operations would just be trained in how to maintain (or build, initially) the system.

In other words, it'd be a cost that would be sunk into the project.

Set aside financial cost (capital and opex), Ontario's energy mix has an incredibly high renewables penetration already making any mass-electrification project already significantly green from the outset. Hydrogen is like putting another middle man in between the transport service and the goal of 100% renewable energy to power the transport system - why bother?

And in fact, there's a rolled-golden opportunity to augment and build the transmission network throughout Toronto from day 1 - whether AC or DC overhead, each line having its own dedicated 30kV AC transmission line (separate from the actual contact wires) servicing all the sub-stations that would need to be built, cuts out the distribution middle-man as well but directly interfaces with the transmission networks, therefore making paying the power bill a straight forward transaction with no litany of third parties taking their cut along the way.
 
You have to remember that no political parties, of any stripe, look any further than the next election and with hyper-partisan Ford that is even more the case. He wants something up and running before the next election and only Hydrail provides that opportunity due to not having to put much infrastructure in place.
 
My bet is that true cross network electrification will be cancelled tomorrow for a Sydney Metro like proposal involving only one or two lines but I certainly hope that is not the case.
If I could extrapolate from that: "The true cross network electrification will be ignored tomorrow". Metrolinx and the Minister(s) never announce that their projects, in which they invested so much hype and happiness, are not going to happen. They just hang them out to wither.

We just don't know yet on what the announcement is going to be, but I too place huge odds on a 'Sydney-like metro'. Everything points to it, everything pointed to that for years, but most Torontonians can't conceive of anything beyond their own 'norm'. Torontonians are very stick in the mud. You can prove to them, show working models, costs, happy customers, and many will respond "Oh that's not how we do it, won't work here". It's not just planners and politicians holding the GTHA back, it's the lack of dynamic will for change.

And ironically, it's going to be Mr Hate that just might deliver it. The question is the financing more than the concept. A metro has been a slam dunk ever since Toronto couldn't afford to do anything, and the Province calls the shots in lieu of that.

I question whether the City can even afford to do King Street the way logic demands...

One small step for the King Street streetcar, one giant leap for Toronto

It will be 'deferred'
Yup! You posted that while I was writing mine. Exactly.
 
The tidbit I ‘overheard’ was that the reduction that ML has had to make to its LSE expansion budget is a cut of $500M to a budget of $723M.
If that proves true, and if cuts to the rest of the RER project scope are of comparable magnitude, then RER is dead, although some amount of expansion can happen.
- Paul
 
The tidbit I ‘overheard’ was that the reduction that ML has had to make to its LSE expansion budget is a cut of $500M to a budget of $723M.
If that proves true, and if cuts to the rest of the RER project scope are of comparable magnitude, then RER is dead, although some amount of expansion can happen.
- Paul
The GO Expansion plan released not so long ago....Was developed under the PC government no? Are they cutting back from that plan?
 
The GO Expansion plan released not so long ago....Was developed under the PC government no? Are they cutting back from that plan?

That version was released with the caveat that it had not cleared the new government’s comprehensive spending review. We have not seen a plan that is post-review. In any event, both versions were pre-funding proposals. We don’t know which parts are funded, until they are....they are fantasy documents IMHO.

- Paul
 
For the Hydrail fanatics, a note of caution. I'd posted the preliminary reports here a year or so ago, time to post it again:
16 APRIL 2019

ANALYSIS
Does hydrail work in the UK? The view from the Institution of Mechanical Engineers
By Adele Berti

The Institution of Mechanical Engineers is campaigning for the adoption of hydrogen trains for non-electrified lines in the UK. Dr Jenifer Baxter, head of engineering at the institution, explains when hydrogen should and should not be used and how it can help the UK Government achieve its target of phasing out all diesel trains by 2040.

IMechE has studied the impact of hydrogen-powered trains and how they can be used on non-electrified lines, and is now campaigning for their introduction on the UK network.

In a report titled “The future for hydrogen trains in the UK”, researchers from IMechE have also advised the Department for Transport (DfT) to embark on more innovative and long-term electrification programmes, and called for the construction of a more sustainable and comprehensive infrastructure.

Dr Jenifer Baxter, head of engineering at IMechE, explains the report and considers what the next steps should be for the government and policymakers.

Adele Berti: What are the main findings of your report?
Jenifer Baxter: The report is about the potential for hydrogen trains in the UK in the future. Within it, the main finding is that the best thing that we can do to decarbonise the rail sector is to electrify more of the line.
[...]
Where possible, electric trains should be introduced as they are the most efficient way of moving large numbers of people and freight around the UK.

That is primarily what the UK Government and the DfT need to do, to look at the cancellation of some of the electrification projects and take a deep look at whether or not that’s the most appropriate thing to do considering their own policy of removing diesel trains by 2040.

As part of that, one of our recommendations is, in a longer-term approach, to roll out an electrification programme. So, rather than creating ad hoc and short-term projects, the programmes should be ongoing, so that we keep electrifying lines all over the UK.

This means that the supply chain skills and the career opportunities of people working in that sector are much more likely to be sustainable. This is because when you have projects that come and go, each time you do a project and then you leave a long gap, you lose all of your skills and the supply chain, which makes the project much more expensive.

The second area we’ve looked into is about making sure that when we’ll be thinking about hydrogen trains in the future, we only put them into places where the refuelling system is straightforward and can be done easily.

AB: Where would they work specifically?
JB: When considering using hydrogen trains, you need to make sure that you will only use them in areas where it’s completely impossible either to electrify a line or it is economically unviable.

[This would be the case of] train lines that have good connections to industrial clusters where you can create more hydrogen, and that hydrogen can be used not just for the transport sector and trains, but also for vessels and HGVs, so you have an industrial hub for refuelling for a number of large types of vehicles.

So, there may be areas where running an electrification would be a real challenge and expensive and it wouldn’t be really worth it because you would only be running few trains up and down that line.

For example, the DfT has been looking at regions like Cumbria and Northumbria, where there are train lines that don’t run a lot of trains on them. In those sorts of areas, there is a big possibility that you could run hydrogen trains, particularly as they’ve got connections into the larger cities like Liverpool, Manchester and Middlesbrough.

AB: What benefits does electrifying the network bring compared to introducing hydrogen trains?
JB: Electricity generation is much more direct. So, if you are able to generate a lot of electricity using renewable sources or nuclear power, low-carbon electricity, that electricity goes straight into the fixed electric network of the rail and trains can use it directly.

On the other hand, hydrogen in itself doesn’t exist as a fuel, so you have to extract it from something and you need a large amount of electricity to do so.

The electricity network is also really well established, whereas, with hydrogen, we would have to develop that network and make sure that there is a refuelling system in the critical places where trains will need it.

Another important thing is that an electric train is easy to understand; we know how the technology works and how an electric train will behave on different parts of the rail network. With hydrogen trains we don’t know what happens if, for example, they have an accident inside a tunnel.
[...]
We don’t want to end up with a situation where hydrogen is produced from natural gas, so then when all of the carbon dioxide is taken out, it’s just released into the atmosphere. If that’s the case, you might just burn natural gas in your train, so we need to be sure that we’re building the capabilities in industrial areas that produce hydrogen that is green.

We have to start this correctly; if we start to build an infrastructure that is still dirty, it will remain so. Before we set out on demonstration projects we have to make sure that we’ve got them right and that we are clean.

If we want to see the same type of activity we’ve seen with wind power, and how it has changed over the last 20 years thanks to the amount of subsidies being put by the government during that time, with hydrogen, then an equal commitment has to be made to it.

It’s unlikely though, because of the various investment risks and not knowing exactly which direction things are going to go in and whether the private sector will spontaneously invest in the area.

If you want to see hydrogen as a much more widely used fuel for the decarbonisation, then there will have to be government investments and commitments in the same way that we’ve seen for other sectors.
https://www.railway-technology.com/features/hydrogen-trains-uk/

More here:
IMechE rail report backs hydrogen and electrification combination
7th February 2019 11:04 am
A mix of hydrogen power and electrification is needed to decarbonise the rail network, according to a new report from the Institution of Mechanical Engineers.
Entitled The future for hydrogen trains in the UK, the report emphasises that electrification should still be the priority for replacing diesel trains, which the government has pledged to do by 2040. But where electrification is neither economically nor technically feasible, hydrogen power should be considered as an option. The report also highlights how hydrogen power is not suitable for freight or high speed rail, due to the large amount of storage required. Rural passenger routes, however, could present a viable opportunity. [...]
https://www.theengineer.co.uk/imeche-report-hydrogen-electrification/

The Report is here:
https://s3-eu-central-1.amazonaws.c...s/2019/02/07105329/IMechE-Hydrogen-Trains.pdf
 
Lately in my GO rides I have lucked into twin sets of the new Tier IV locos. Even on a 12 car train, the increased acceleration is impressive. Of course, we are talking 10800 hp for a two-loco set as opposed to one 4000hp MP40, but it felt almost like electrification.

A GO engineer recently explained to me how they manage speed on LSE/LSW. It really made the penny drop for me on why electrification is a good thing.

Crews have a chart which tells them for each station segment, what speed they can reach to maximise fuel efficiency. Basically (assuming permissive signals and a non-diverging route) they accelerate out of a station at full throttle until they reach the prescribed speed for that segment, at which point they throttle back to idle and coast into the next station. Only in a couple of cases do they maintain the prescribed speed over a longer distance.

What’s interesting is how low that maximum speed is - generally 50something mph, and in one case as low as 44 mph. On track that’s good for 80-95 mph. The point being, any further acceleration just means heavier braking coming into the next station..... any extra fuel used is lost as heat during braking. GO prefers to keep the speed lower and pad the schedule accordingly.

Now imagine that you have catenary and you can pump that braking energy back into the wires. You can allow the train to accelerate faster and to a higher speed - and you reclaim all that energy at every stop. You can add stops, or shorten travel times, or both. It’s a game changer.

And no, without the wires, hydrail won’t let you do that, and the peak power input isn’t there yet as hydrail can’t deliver high power output yet. Batteries aren’t as good as catenary for either energy output or recovery.

- Paul
 
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Lately in my GO rides I have lucked into twin sets of the new Tier IV locos. Even on a 12 car train, the increased acceleration is impressive. Of course, we are talking 10800 hp for a two-loco set as opposed to one 4000hp MP40, but it felt almost like electrification.

A GO engineer recently explained to me how they manage speed on LSE/LSW. It really made the penny drop for me on why electrification is a good thing.

Crews have a chart which tells them for each station segment, what speed they can reach to maximise fuel efficiency. Basically (assuming permissive signals and a non-diverging route) they accelerate out of a station at full throttle until they reach the prescribed speed for that segment, at which point they throttle back to idle and coast into the next station. Only in a couple of cases do they maintain the prescribed speed over a longer distance.

What’s interesting is how low that maximum speed is - generally 50something mph, and in one case as low as 44 mph. On track that’s good for 80-95 mph. The point being, any further acceleration just means heavier braking coming into the next station..... any extra fuel used is lost as heat during braking. GO prefers to keep the speed lower and pad the schedule accordingly.

Now imagine that you have catenary and you can pump that braking energy back into the wires. You can allow the train to accelerate faster and to a higher speed - and you reclaim all that energy at every stop. You can add stops, or shorten travel times, or both. It’s a game changer.

And no, without the wires, hydrail won’t let you do that, and the peak power input isn’t there yet as hydrail can’t deliver high power output yet. Batteries aren’t as good as catenary for either energy output or recovery.

- Paul
Ah the good old proverbial bandaid over the bandaid solution to problems which could be solved if they’re willing to.
 

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