GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

[rbt]

High cost + dealing with BOTH CN and CP = not gonna happen

Agreed. Considering the "success" of the Milton corridor, avoiding CP upfront is probably best.

 

[innsertnamehere]

And similarly, look at where the station in Bowmanville will be relocated to under Option 3. Man, Durham region just continues to be an epic failure in land use planning.

Apologies, I meant option 4. Option 3 is even worse.

 

[innsertnamehere]

The fine print still doesn't make sense according to what's being touted:

- Option 3

Go figure...(Best I detail as it will be missed by some: System-wide planned RER electrified is the prerequisite for "15 min all-day two way" since present stock numbers are woefully inadequate to do so) In the event, I take anything coming out of the Metrolinx Fantasy Fiesta with a grain of magic dust. It's going to be three and half years until anything believable or concrete happens from ML. And then the following regime will have the legitimate excuse: "The Ford Tories left the cupboard looted and bare. It will take years to rebuild the plans to expand".

Btw: I notice that the 'Get Out of Promise Free' card has been expunged from a number of ML docs. The (gist) "contingent on the Immaculate Leader's whims' clause.

I'll reference later, must run.

My understanding is that they appear to be planning 15 minute service to end in Oshawa still, with hourly express trains running to Bowmanville. A similar setup to the planned service to Hamilton on LSW.

 

[ShonTron]

The Ritson South GO station on the CN line is not horrible - it's not far from where the old CN station was, actually. It's a much easier connection to downtown by transit or by active transportation than the current station, though I'd really like the electrification to extend there, if by expropriation if necessary. Ritson South should have a bus terminal, but limited parking, as access to Highway 401 isn't great, despite the proximity.

Hopefully the old Oshawa Railway bridge can be rebuilt over the 401 for an extension of the multiuse path south to Ritson.

But the new Bowmanville Station would be awful if trains remain on the CN line - and again, if that's where it ends up, its too bad the rail spur bridge over Highway 401 was recently removed - it would have made for a nice path towards Downtown Bowmanville.

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

The Ritson South GO station on the CN line is not horrible - it's not far from where the old CN station was, actually. It's a much easier connection to downtown by transit or by active transportation than the current station, though I'd really like the electrification to extend there, if by expropriation if necessary. Ritson South should have a bus terminal, but limited parking, as access to Highway 401 isn't great, despite the proximity.

I have to agree. The CP Ritson Road station is still a good click and a half southeast of Oshawa's core, and nestled in low density housing (even if there are new developments in the pipe. Moving it south wouldn't make a huge difference in that regard. What I would like to see is a different bridge location, however. A station by Bloor St was envisioned as part of this extension, that'll be nixed with Option 4 unless you shifted the 401 bridge north. Then again, a new station and a new mid-to-high density community north of the 401 between Prestonvale and Townline Road wouldn't be so bad.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Option 2 is best one. Retains all the stations. Gives Oshawa much better coverage, and goes into downtown Bowmanville.

 

[Northern Light]

Option 2 is best, with 4 an ok'ish choice.

Given the higher costs of 2, I would argue strongly for phasing, and going only to Courtice.

This would still be much more convenient for passengers arriving from further east, provide downtown Oshawa w/a station nearby, and allows easy future expansion to Bomaville, while keeping the bills under control.

Picture from the Metrolinx material of the routes.

 

[steveintoronto]

High cost + dealing with BOTH CN and CP = not gonna happen

Agreed. Considering the "success" of the Milton corridor, avoiding CP upfront is probably best.

My understanding is that they appear to be planning 15 minute service to end in Oshawa still, with hourly express trains running to Bowmanville.

In Verster's circular bafflegab at the May 2 Town Hall, he predicated any option of service to "Bowmanville" to be contingent on (gist) "All day both way 15 minute service". That may have been exactly what he stated, but at least the gist. That's what I've pointed out to others in this string, my stating (gist) "As presented, it doesn't make sense, not least due to the 'single track' part" only to be taken to issue. Read back a page.

And now the 'theory' is being spun yet again in another direction. As posited by posters quoted above, CP have yet to state a word on this that I've read, let alone "catenary" for either CN or CP. What Verster distinctly stated, and the point was made clear also by his questioner that the "single track" (gist) 'separate from the CP mainline' is as obvious: On the CP RoW.

It's a much easier connection to downtown by transit or by active transportation than the current station, though I'd really like the electrification to extend there, if by expropriation if necessary.

It's going to have to be to fit the stories spun so far. It's not a perfect option for reasons pointed out, but none of them are, but at the end of the day, the 'schedule risk' would be reduced to near zero for this option.

However, Ford's puppetmasters aren't going to go for this. It costs money. They only offered a budget. They didn't promise to spend it.

More images for fingers cross behind back

- Google

What's been offered are four options all primed to be withdrawn yet again on the 'provocation' of becoming real.

 

[steveintoronto]

^ Here's the "Double track to Bowmanville" discussion again:
https://www.metrolinxengage.com/en/content/ask-metrolinx-may-2-2019 @ 1:07>

My head is spinning just from trying to follow the logic as stated. The questions up at the site for the May 2 meeting (now two weeks ago) are still unanswered.

 

[crs1026]

My understanding is that they appear to be planning 15 minute service to end in Oshawa still, with hourly express trains running to Bowmanville. A similar setup to the planned service to Hamilton on LSW.

Part of me is glad to hear this, because I’m not sure Bowmanville needed 15 minute service....but another part of me is fearful that ML is now being forced to do this extension “on the cheap” and it will end up being anemic and undermarketable. If you have the choice of parking at Bowmanville at the risk of missing an hourly train, versus driving to Oshawa with the assurance of a train whenever you get there, which will you choose? Didn’t GO just prove the value of 30 minute service over hourly frequencies on the Lakeshore? Much of Bowmanville’s potential and business case merit will depend on connections to Brooklin, Newcastle, Peterboro, and beyond.... trying to time the drive to the station to an hourly frequency, or having to time late night departures from downtown, will just incent people to park at Oshawa.

The downsizing of the route, plus that odd Verster response at that last town hall, makes me think that ML can only afford the kind of service we have today on Mt Pleasant, Aurora, and Mount Joy......one track, with only enough passing capacity for off peak 2WAD..

Whatever the route, there needs to be enough capacity roughed in for a proper service, even if the initial service is only 30 minutes. Hourly just doesn’t cut it IMHO.

- Paul

 

[steveintoronto]

plus that odd Verster response at that last town hall,

I'm more than willing for Verster to clarify his statement, it's easy to tell he's under immense pressure to deliver the "Yurek Philosophy" (and I'm not being facetious, that's a statement made on at least three occasions in print, let alone live) and somehow he's got to come up with an alibi on the hoof. So contradictions and mistakes are inevitable, since Yurek talks in circles at best, and makes it up as he goes along.

But what I can't accept is that there's nothing *written* by Verster on this. And still not a word up at https://www.metrolinxengage.com/en/content/ask-metrolinx-may-2-2019

The only logic I can make of this so far is to prevaricate, obfuscate and delay. When even the local PC MPPs are in the dark and complaining...you know it ain't good...

 

[crs1026]

The only logic I can make of this so far is to prevaricate, obfuscate and delay. When even the local PC MPPs are in the dark and complaining...you know it ain't good...

The problem began when the last government allowed an implicit promise to form that was never substantially fulfillable. I have never believed that the RER vision was affordable, even when a lefty government was in power. I suspect Verster realised in his early days that he was hired under a “cheque is in the mail” mentality - but rather than calling this out he became part of the problem by using his ample charms to continue to spread the blarney.
Now we have a government that is intent on cutting everything, in a climate where cuts only generate bad press. Stating the obvious fact, ie that their funding commitment will fall short of what an RER network would require, will just be added to the headlines as one more controversial cut. I have some sympathy because the original plan, being unfundable, was never to be.....why should the Ford government take heat for appearing to cut something popular, when that something never really existed?
I am actually a lot happier with a delivered PC funding of say $500M per year in expansion capital spending, as opposed to a Wynne commitment of say $3B spending that they were in the process of renegging on. I just wish we could clear the air, and move on. The continued pretense of rapid, immediate GO expansion is a lie. I don’t mind the bad news that GO won’t expand in our lifetimes.... just don’t lie to us.

- Paul

 

[dowlingm]

Would getting rid of the CP Belleville dip east of Courtice be a reasonable addition to a passenger rail project via CPR? Embank the track west of Bowmanville for a 4km straight shot , and get rid of by my count 5 grade crossings (Hancock, Rundle, Baseline, Holt, Maple Grove)? Would probably have been easier if this had been done before or tacked onto the 418 work of course...

 

[steveintoronto]

but rather than calling this out he became part of the problem by using his ample charms to continue to spread the blarney.

It's very difficult to quantify this on a personal Verster basis, but something that's clearly telling is how profusely he now sweats in public engagements, and how his choice of words is multiples more difficult now than when he first came on the scene.

He was fresh and altruistic in the first two UT interviews with Jonathan English, he had new ideas with full reference and a confidence to go with it.

It's not the same man...

I agree, let's bring the whole massive dirigible down to earth, get a lot more pragmatic bearing and vehicle, and start moving people at a more pedantic pace, but within expectations.

What's astounding is that so many, including PC MPPs are left out in the cold on this. All that's necessary is a waiting room until the train comes, not some fantastic Taj Mahal which is what Metrolinx has been all about for some time in lieu of actually delivering people to where they need to go.

A Lamborghini is useless without roads.

 

[steveintoronto]

Would getting rid of the CP Belleville dip east of Courtice be a reasonable addition to a passenger rail project via CPR? Embank the track west of Bowmanville for a 4km straight shot , and get rid of by my count 5 grade crossings (Hancock, Rundle, Baseline, Holt, Maple Grove)? Would probably have been easier if this had been done before or tacked onto the 418 work of course...

Can anyone actually provide a clip or quote of CP actually expressing willingness, let alone legally enabling this to come to pass? I presume you mean on CP property? If not, who is going to pay to acquire all the private land alongside the RoW? Certainly not QP at this point in time.