Allandale25
Senior Member
Any one interested in doing a similar calculation for the GO trains?
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GO Transit Electrification | Metrolinx
- Thread starter innsertnamehere
- Start date
smallspy
Senior Member
A bit off-topic, but one thing that chart doesn't show is the access fees required when the overhead and power supply is not owned by that particular agency. Amtrak's fees are atrocious, and have prevented many of the transit agencies from electrifying or expanding their electrification.
Dan
Streety McCarface
Senior Member
Can't entirely blame amtrak though, they need all the reliability and money they can get.
ssiguy2
Senior Member
Dec 4/2019 the new BNEF Li-ion battery price survey came out. The price declined another 13% between 2018 to 2019. It has gone from $1100 /kilowatt price in 2010 to just $156 tosay......….an 87% decline. This is expected to drop to $100 by 2023 to 2024. These figures are REAL dollar amounts and not inflation adjusted meaning that by 2024, in inflation adjusted figure, prices per kw/hour will have dropped by 96% from 2010.
These gains are even more significant due to the batteries themselves also taking far shorter times to recharge, having much longer distance abilities, and being much lighter. By 2024, battery weights could be down by 40% by what they are now. Not many technologies out there where energy price per km has plunged 96%.
Yet more reasons why RER should go battery.
These gains are even more significant due to the batteries themselves also taking far shorter times to recharge, having much longer distance abilities, and being much lighter. By 2024, battery weights could be down by 40% by what they are now. Not many technologies out there where energy price per km has plunged 96%.
Yet more reasons why RER should go battery.
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ssiguy2
Senior Member
Couple new updates...………...
The Indian Express has reported that it plans to have new developed in India hydrogen trains plying suburban commuter routes by the end of 2021. These trains will originally help phase out any diesel trains but also, surprisingly, many catenary ones as well. The latter reason is to reduce the overall usage of electricity as much of Indian production comes from coal and oil. The hydrogen is also seen as more reliable than catenary as many Indian cities suffer from extreme weather events like monsoons in Mumbai which can wreak havoc on the electrical infrastructure.
Norway, according to railwayjournal, announced 6 days ago the it compared many potential systems to de-carbonize it's entire passenger rail system by 2030 including hydrogen, battery, biofuel, solar,,and catenary and has decided to go 100% battery. It was shown to be the most economical and versatile technology. Not only will these battery trains be used on non-catenary suburban/regional routes but also on cross country one including an 800km single route line by using recharging during travel, using contact & contactless catenary small catenary sections while still travelling. and catenary sections at stops along the way. This is a confirmed go ahead so soon an entire country's non-catenary systems will be battery. A huge leap forward for the technology and a resounding support of how Norway views the technology as both economical and applicable.
The Indian Express has reported that it plans to have new developed in India hydrogen trains plying suburban commuter routes by the end of 2021. These trains will originally help phase out any diesel trains but also, surprisingly, many catenary ones as well. The latter reason is to reduce the overall usage of electricity as much of Indian production comes from coal and oil. The hydrogen is also seen as more reliable than catenary as many Indian cities suffer from extreme weather events like monsoons in Mumbai which can wreak havoc on the electrical infrastructure.
Norway, according to railwayjournal, announced 6 days ago the it compared many potential systems to de-carbonize it's entire passenger rail system by 2030 including hydrogen, battery, biofuel, solar,,and catenary and has decided to go 100% battery. It was shown to be the most economical and versatile technology. Not only will these battery trains be used on non-catenary suburban/regional routes but also on cross country one including an 800km single route line by using recharging during travel, using contact & contactless catenary small catenary sections while still travelling. and catenary sections at stops along the way. This is a confirmed go ahead so soon an entire country's non-catenary systems will be battery. A huge leap forward for the technology and a resounding support of how Norway views the technology as both economical and applicable.
tayser
Active Member
On your last point - I can see how the mix and match will work in rural areas (simply because of the large distances covered for regional services and far less frequency of service) and I wouldn't be surprised if AU inter-city and regional networks go down this path (the new regional trains for NSW will be straight hybrids: panto to use the wires where they exist, diesel for everything else) but in an urban/suburban context it's the total opposite: shorter distance (30-50km) and much higher frequency of service.
If you're running trains every 10 minutes (peak/off-peak/whatever), there'd be a need for an entirely separate fuel management task - juggling runs and fuel levels in each vehicle, refueling them (and how much does that blow out times at origin/destination stations?).... gah, too much hassle - just build catenary or third rail and run everything within a metro area + just beyond on full electric trains.
You also want lighter vehicles operating city/metropolitan area-wide services (and for maximum operational efficiency, you don't want them dwelling at platforms to refuel - or worse, taking them off mainlines to refuel then add them back onto mainlines).. Any liquid fuel onboard, let alone extra equipment to create more fuel through electrolysis where it's available, increases weight and therefore cost to purchase the vehicles and probably has track maintenance risks with heavier vehicles as well.
If you're running trains every 10 minutes (peak/off-peak/whatever), there'd be a need for an entirely separate fuel management task - juggling runs and fuel levels in each vehicle, refueling them (and how much does that blow out times at origin/destination stations?).... gah, too much hassle - just build catenary or third rail and run everything within a metro area + just beyond on full electric trains.
You also want lighter vehicles operating city/metropolitan area-wide services (and for maximum operational efficiency, you don't want them dwelling at platforms to refuel - or worse, taking them off mainlines to refuel then add them back onto mainlines).. Any liquid fuel onboard, let alone extra equipment to create more fuel through electrolysis where it's available, increases weight and therefore cost to purchase the vehicles and probably has track maintenance risks with heavier vehicles as well.
p_xavier
Active Member
You guys talk about RER a lot, I thought it was cancelled and is now just GO Transit ameliorations?
crs1026
Superstar
R
RER was just the name given to a specific expansion strategy. When the new government came in, they changed the name to ‘GO Expansion’ to take the credit away from the previous government. The underlying plan and strategy is still pretty much the same. A few details have been tinkered with, and funding has been stretched out over a longer period - but it’s the same program, and it’s alive and well. If the government changes again, the name may change yet again.
- Paul
RER was just the name given to a specific expansion strategy. When the new government came in, they changed the name to ‘GO Expansion’ to take the credit away from the previous government. The underlying plan and strategy is still pretty much the same. A few details have been tinkered with, and funding has been stretched out over a longer period - but it’s the same program, and it’s alive and well. If the government changes again, the name may change yet again.
- Paul
robmausser
Senior Member
Also third rail are problematic in colder climates with ice and snow. It would be a terrible decision to use them on the GO system for so many reasons.
JSF-1
Active Member
While no linger relevant I came across this document from the GO ALRT era.
Allandale25
Senior Member
Allandale25
Senior Member
/https://www.thestar.com/content/dam/thestar/news/gta/2020/01/20/go-expansion-plans-facing-uncertainty-as-companies-raise-concerns-over-p3-procurement-model-documents-warn/go_transit.jpg)
GO Expansion plans facing uncertainty as companies raise concerns over P3 procurement model, documents warn
The internal Metrolinx documents show the regional transit agency and Infrastructure Ontario had to rethink the procurement after private sector bidde...
cplchanb
Senior Member
Tldr? Paywall hereGO Expansion plans facing uncertainty as companies raise concerns over P3 procurement model, documents warn
The internal Metrolinx documents show the regional transit agency and Infrastructure Ontario had to rethink the procurement after private sector bidde...www.thestar.com
innsertnamehere
Superstar
Contractors aren't happy with how much risk Metrolinx is trying to push on them with the P3 model, essentially. They find these contracts to be approaching "unworkable" as they have no way to reasonably predict costs associated with some of the risks Metrolinx is looking for them to take on.
Divas S.
Active Member
I never understand p3's unless you or a friend are in the construction industry and can make money from it, and I have a feeling nobody in this government has those connections so..?? Why can't the government just build their own stuff instead of having to deal with these for-profit companies