GO Transit Electrification | Metrolinx

[TheTigerMaster]

That would mean admitting that IO/P3 is failing, and would have political implications at provincial and federal levels (not least given that arms of government other than transport use P3 to deliver)

Remember the Harper Tories pushing hard to link federal project help to P3s?

Hon. James M. Flaherty Honoured Posthumously as 2014 P3 Champion

/CNW/ - The Canadian Council for Public-Private Partnerships (CCPPP) is proud to announce that the late Honourable James (Jim) Michael Flaherty has been...

www.newswire.ca

I found the orthodoxy of P3 being automatically better somewhat questionable anyways - especially in the context of multi-decadal projects that will be reliant on learnings from earlier phases - and clearly risk transference (one of the major rationale of P3) isn't happening at their price in this case. The interpretation of IO/P3 is failing is only true if one isn't flexible enough to accept that there are exceptions.

AoD

With Christine Elliott in the cabinet (see end of that press release) do you see any flexibility forthcoming?

Both the Liberals and the CPC/PC have spent the last two years acting as if only the private sector can deliver results when it comes to public infrastructure. I don't see them changing their tune anytime soon, even if it costs us billions upon billions upon billions of dollars

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Also, in light of this news, I find Metrolinx's botched subway takeover all that more laughable

Metrolinx: Yea, we wanna own a subway. "It'll be easy" (The CEO actually said this)

Also Metrolinx: can't figure out how to string up some catenary without getting charged up the a*s for it

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

With Christine Elliott in the cabinet (see end of that press release) do you see any flexibility forthcoming?

Of course not. But then again, the premier has developed a case of pretzel-spine of late.

AoD

 

[asher__jo]

Or, plot twist: outsourcing electrification of the GO network to the TTC. There’s probably no other organization in North America with more experience building and operating electrified rail services. The TTC will have far lower borrowing costs than the private sector, and Metrolinx wouldn’t have to pay a premium to account for contingencies and private sector profits. Seems like a logical move to me. Although it would never happen due to institutional bickering

I’m serious though, I think the TTC should put in the offer. There’s no reason government agencies shouldn’t work together if they believe it’ll lower costs and deliver better results.

Definitely a compelling downloading of transit. I actually always supported things being downloaded to the city, it just never came with funding tools or compensation to work.

 

[cplchanb]

Or, plot twist: outsourcing electrification of the GO network to the TTC. There’s probably no other organization in North America with more experience building and operating electrified rail services. The TTC will have far lower borrowing costs than the private sector, and Metrolinx wouldn’t have to pay a premium to account for contingencies and private sector profits. Seems like a logical move to me. Although it would never happen due to institutional bickering

I’m serious though, I think the TTC should put in the offer. There’s no reason government agencies shouldn’t work together if they believe it’ll lower costs and deliver better results.

Why do people think TTC is the champion of transit? They have experience in 3rd rail tech but in terms of catenary they have only a couple years of street car use, and not heavy rail. I would rather they hire an experienced contractor from the overseas to oversee this. Besides, the TTC budget is already stretched to the limit. They will not have any money to handle this and will be at the whim of the same city council that brought to you the infamous SSE....

 

[cplchanb]

Definitely a compelling downloading of transit. I actually always supported things being downloaded to the city, it just never came with funding tools or compensation to work.

GO is GTHA. NOT Toronto! They should be under the responsibility of the region (not necessarily Ontario) not 1 of the cities.

 

[crs1026]

^I haven't looked up the details, but some contractor strung the Ottawa LRT. Some contractor strung the Kitchener iOn. Somebody is stringing the Crosstown. Someone will be stringing REM. Not to mention all the other LRT's that have been springing up in the USA.

There are plenty of contractors who have the capability to do this work.

Sure, one might want to consult AMT or Amtrak or someone to get the design right, especially since GO electrification is bigger than an LRT in many ways - voltage, feeders, substations.

My point is, TTC is only one of many.

- Paul

 

[asher__jo]

GO is GTHA. NOT Toronto! They should be under the responsibility of the region (not necessarily Ontario) not 1 of the cities.

There was talk of uploading TTC's expertise, so it isn't the most far-fetched idea of a long running and proven organization to manage regional transit. Also, the city of Toronto is the centre of the GTHA when it comes to population, jobs, etc.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Why do people think TTC is the champion of transit? They have experience in 3rd rail tech but in terms of catenary they have only a couple years of street car use, and not heavy rail. I would rather they hire an experienced contractor from the overseas to oversee this. Besides, the TTC budget is already stretched to the limit. They will not have any money to handle this and will be at the whim of the same city council that brought to you the infamous SSE....

^I haven't looked up the details, but some contractor strung the Ottawa LRT. Some contractor strung the Kitchener iOn. Somebody is stringing the Crosstown. Someone will be stringing REM. Not to mention all the other LRT's that have been springing up in the USA.

There are plenty of contractors who have the capability to do this work.

Sure, one might want to consult AMT or Amtrak or someone to get the design right, especially since GO electrification is bigger than an LRT in many ways - voltage, feeders, substations.

My point is, TTC is only one of many.

- Paul

Now I never suggested the TTC was the only organization that knows how to string some catenary. My point was that, given that the TTC probably builds, owns, operates and maintains more catenary (including enabling infrastructure such as substations) than anyone else in North America, that it might be wise for Metrolinx to look at the TTC for their expertise in the field. Especially given that, due to the factors I mentioned in the original post, the TTC would likely get it done far cheaper than any of these P3 partners

 

[crs1026]

Now I never suggested the TTC was the only organization that knows how to string some catenary. My point was that, given that the TTC probably builds, owns, operates and maintains more centenary (including enabling infrastructure such as substations) than anyone else in North America, that it might be wise for Metrolinx to look at the TTC for their expertise in the field. Especially given that, due to the factors I mentioned in the original post, the TTC would likely get it done far cheaper than any of these P3 partners

Can't argue- if I had an opinion from ML, and a differing opinion from TTC, I would take TTC's advice and ignore ML's.

However there may be issues with 25kv infrastructure that TTC hasn't had to deal with. Ideally I would want someone who had that expertise.

- Paul

 

[Streety McCarface]

Now I never suggested the TTC was the only organization that knows how to string some catenary. My point was that, given that the TTC probably builds, owns, operates and maintains more catenary (including enabling infrastructure such as substations) than anyone else in North America, that it might be wise for Metrolinx to look at the TTC for their expertise in the field. Especially given that, due to the factors I mentioned in the original post, the TTC would likely get it done far cheaper than any of these P3 partners

We actually don't (Dallas, Portland, LA, and PHILLY have more), but your point is decent.

Can't argue- if I had an opinion from ML, and a differing opinion from TTC, I would take TTC's advice and ignore ML's.

However there may be issues with 25kv infrastructure that TTC hasn't had to deal with. Ideally I would want someone who had that expertise.

- Paul

Consultants exist for a reason. You don't need a DBFM P3 to run a catenary system.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

From Ben Spurr:

Ben Spurr 1h1 hour ago

More transit news: Infrastructure Minister Laurie Scott announces in a statement that Infrastructure Ontario President Ehren Cory, whose role included overseeing delivery of major provincial transit projects, is stepping down April 30.

AoD

 

[TheTigerMaster]

From Ben Spurr:

Ben Spurr 1h1 hour ago

More transit news: Infrastructure Minister Laurie Scott announces in a statement that Infrastructure Ontario President Ehren Cory, whose role included overseeing delivery of major provincial transit projects, is stepping down April 30.

AoD

Given recent events, I can’t take that as a sign things are going well internally

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Given recent events, I can’t take that as a sign things are going well internally

Why would you say that, considering how transparent and accountable it has been?

AoD

 

[W. K. Lis]

Why do people think TTC is the champion of transit? They have experience in 3rd rail tech but in terms of catenary they have only a couple years of street car use, and not heavy rail. I would rather they hire an experienced contractor from the overseas to oversee this. Besides, the TTC budget is already stretched to the limit. They will not have any money to handle this and will be at the whim of the same city council that brought to you the infamous SSE....

Members of the TTC board:

Councillor Jaye Robinson, Ward 15 Don Valley West, Chair
Alan Heisey, Q.C. (Citizen), Vice-Chair
Councillor Brad Bradford, Ward 19 Beaches
Councillor Shelley Carroll, Ward 17 Don Valley North
Joanne De Laurentiis (Citizen)
Councillor Jim Karygiannis, Ward 22 Scarborough-Agincourt
Councillor Jennifer McKelvie, Ward 25 Scarborough-Rouge Park
Ron Lalonde (Citizen)
Councillor Denzil Minnan-Wong, Ward 16 Don Valley East, Deputy Mayor
Julie Osborne (Citizen)

Denzil Minnon-Wang can't live without his car. See link.
Jim Kargiannis rarely takes the TTC. See link.
...to be continued.

Need a real transit commissioners, who actually uses public transit. Need a Steve Munro and others like him on the transit boards. Or a real transit czar.