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GO Transit: Construction Projects (Metrolinx, various)

see this is also a byproduct of our society fawning on white collared jobs. we simply dont have enough skilled tradesmen to do our jobs. for the last couple decades parents have been preaching to their children the stigma of not going to university and working on bay st or some other tech firm.
this is result. we dont have a skilled trades future. queue the temp foreign workers.
I keep telling my kids that there's actually decent salaries and opportunities in the trades. I don't understand why parents would prefer they get arts degrees or recreation degrees.

High end science perhaps ... but English and History? Why is there no stigma against that?
 
I question how this is a budgetary issue and not a labour shortage / expertise shortage / competent management shortage? @crs1026 You seem more knowledgeable than me, so please clarify or correct my suppositions:

How is $27.5 billion not enough to electrify 260 km and double tracking just under 150 km (USRC already has enough tracks?). "a Value does not reflect the full project cost" https://assets.metrolinx.com/image/...em_10.1_-_CPG_GO_UP_Update_-_FINAL_ENG_Mx.pdf

Or is the $27.5+ billion baseline what is supposedly needed, but the cheapo province is hesitant to dole out the money to execute the plans?
Bear in mind, this is already $105 million/km. Most HSR projects in the world have a much lower per km cost, even if we give each HSR country one "vote", so China doesn't skew the average. I've converted the figures to 2026 $Canadian Dollars.

It is certainly everything you suggest, but I would add that ML has had to shift money around, thanks to overages in major projects that have been launched. So electrification cannot be said to be "money in the bank funded", and at this point the money that might have been used has been applied to other things.

My sense is that the GO envelope is a cash flow issue for QP which takes precedence over potential execution windows - and certainly no additional money is being added to the envelope.

I question whether the money was ever truly there at all. The Wynne government clearly promised GO upgrades but took no action to procure or launch them. It was very cheap PR and not much more, despite a really attractive plan.

Ford has supported his vanity projects, but has also created cost pressures by doling out for other things (payoff to Brewers Retail for instance) and deferral of obvious revenue sources (auto licensing, gasoline tax, etc etc)

No doubt - Compared to the cost of say a 401 tunnel, or an island airport expansion, or a new Science Center, or a Highway 413.... GO electrification is an affordable and prudent investment. But ML isn't getting anything and its envelope is shrinking through overages on other projects.

And, as you suggest - electrification is every bit as complex a project as say Crosstown, and look at the project infrastructure that would have to be built to execute it. So not easy to find the people to plan and execute.

- Paul
 
I keep telling my kids that there's actually decent salaries and opportunities in the trades. I don't understand why parents would prefer they get arts degrees or recreation degrees.

High end science perhaps ... but English and History? Why is there no stigma against that?

There shouldn't be stigma - time in those fields is not necessarily a waste - but I have to agree, the biggest mistake I made as a parent was steering my kids towards those disciplines. They would have faced a much more secure and lucrative career had they hired on to do construction locates.

- Paul
 
Decent salaries that still aren't enough to make rent, save up for a down payment or afford a mortgage. So why break your back in the trades when you could chill at an office, pushing papers and doing other bullshit, and make a comparable amount of money? (not always, but often)
 
I keep telling my kids that there's actually decent salaries and opportunities in the trades. I don't understand why parents would prefer they get arts degrees or recreation degrees.

High end science perhaps ... but English and History? Why is there no stigma against that?
I have a history degree, what's wrong with that? Science, especially comp sci, is (hysterically) appearing to be the first to get swallowed up by the stupid AI menace. "lEaRn 2 CoDe" indeed...
 
At least IT guys could easily find jobs all these years. History majors were all in McJobs or in random BS office roles. The only reason there was demand for so many BS office jobs for people with BS degrees was because of the infinite monetary and fiscal stimulus since the early 2010s.
 
w
It is certainly everything you suggest, but I would add that ML has had to shift money around, thanks to overages in major projects that have been launched. So electrification cannot be said to be "money in the bank funded", and at this point the money that might have been used has been applied to other things.

My sense is that the GO envelope is a cash flow issue for QP which takes precedence over potential execution windows - and certainly no additional money is being added to the envelope.

I question whether the money was ever truly there at all. The Wynne government clearly promised GO upgrades but took no action to procure or launch them. It was very cheap PR and not much more, despite a really attractive plan.

Ford has supported his vanity projects, but has also created cost pressures by doling out for other things (payoff to Brewers Retail for instance) and deferral of obvious revenue sources (auto licensing, gasoline tax, etc etc)

No doubt - Compared to the cost of say a 401 tunnel, or an island airport expansion, or a new Science Center, or a Highway 413.... GO electrification is an affordable and prudent investment. But ML isn't getting anything and its envelope is shrinking through overages on other projects.

And, as you suggest - electrification is every bit as complex a project as say Crosstown, and look at the project infrastructure that would have to be built to execute it. So not easy to find the people to plan and execute.

- Paul
which begs the question WTF happened to all the money that was earmarked for this project? why are we suddenly paying significantly more for significantly less?
can we recoup the money that was promised for electrification if theyre not doing it anymore within our generation?
 
My dad pushed me to go to college for a trade. I appreciated his reasons why, but pushed ahead with a science degree and it's led me to a good professional career. My partner did an english degree with the expectation of going to teachers college. The latter part blew up thanks to retirees hanging around and admission spots being axed. She ended up going to college for a career for animal care.

This was all with a backdrop of the high school stigma that college-level high school courses, and college generally, was 'for non-smart people'. I'd like to think that stigma is changing, but I'm not a teenager anymore. Kids not there yet either.

All of this to say that it's complicated. The job market changes fast, sometimes too fast for our secondary and higher education system to keep up. The 'dumb college' stigma may linger. We don't fund our schools as much as we should. We don't push our universities to integrate technical skills into more degree programs as much as we should. Our public investment in things needing skilled trades is volatile. The private building sector is volatile, not helped by our governments making development unpredictable and costly.

All of that contributes to the skilled trades shortage, IMO. And anyone who wants to point fingers at people studying in the humanities can stick it. It's wrong and stupid.
 
Decent salaries that still aren't enough to make rent, save up for a down payment or afford a mortgage. So why break your back in the trades when you could chill at an office, pushing papers and doing other bullshit, and make a comparable amount of money? (not always, but often)
Sanity? Self-respect? Suicide-prevention?

I have a history degree, what's wrong with that?
I'm surprised that you wouldn't need another degree along with that. Jobs that opens up by itself are few and far between; though I'd love to have one of them if it was interesting.
 
Sanity? Self-respect? Suicide-prevention?

I'm surprised that you wouldn't need another degree along with that. Jobs that opens up by itself are few and far between; though I'd love to have one of them if it was interesting.
Oh I do have another one, yes, but I wouldn't have that second one without the history predecessor.
 
Don't know where this fits best, GO privatization / TOC / real estate discussion moved here:

just nudging the project ahead enough to keep it alive until the next election. which seems exactly what is happening right now. thats the problem with public projects. its all on the whim of the ruling govt.
a private entity equivalent to brightline needs to take over rail operations.
Brightline is not a good example of the superior efficiency of private enterprise, which is likely financially unsustainable aka about to be bankrupt barring government intervention, despite taking billions in grants and other subsidies from multiple levels of government. Tip of the iceberg: https://reecemartin.ca/140027266/im-concerned-about-brightline-west/

I would argue Brightline is more of a scheme for Americans to get half-decent rail service under the guise of glorious American "private enterprise". It's a lie to avoid political opposition.

Similar to CDPQ explicitly calling the REM a light rail in earlier public documents, despite all evidence within those documents pointing to metro, or light metro at worst (at lightest?) It's all political. People love light rail in North America, Anglophone and Francophone alike.

JR can be modeled though. Theyre doing quite well
You're missing the nuance here. The 4 private JRs were not built ground up as private companies. They came from the splitting up and privatization of the state-owned railway company, each inheriting pre-existing routes, real estate, rolling stock, and infrastructure.

JR is touted as the gold standard due to its profitability, but a good chunk of the profit comes from real estate and retail near stations, not just ticket revenues. The real estate holdings existing can create the demand for rail services in a positive feedback loop.

Also, the state kept 2/3rds of the state-owned railway's debt during privatization, which was later socialized entirely. They privatized the profits and socialized most of the debt.

The process of privatization led to divestment of money losing lines, conversions to buses, with many lines closing altogether. Lines that were arguably essential for less populated communities. The eventual private JRs inherited most of the profitable ones.

Furthermore, the 4 private JRs became profitable in part because the weaker JR Hokkaido, Shikoku and Freight were left for the State to deal with. The 3 state-owned JRs operating in smaller markets have predictably been less profitable, if not unprofitable after the 1987 split.

To their credit, going further into real estate and retail was a smart move, a model that was already pioneered by non-JR private railways. The only Canadian equivalent that comes to mind is the Canadian Pacific Hotels, many of which became the Fairmont Hotels we see today.

There are reasons why natural monopolies like railways have been government owned in certain countries. I also personally don't see the JR / MTR models being emulated in Canada easily, if not due to a lower-trust society, due to the red-tape and NIMBYism around real estate development. JR already had real estate when the state-owned JNR split 4 decades ago, then bought and developed more land when it was still cheap. The equivalent in Ontario today would require prohibitively expensive purchases and/or expropriations to put land in the hands of transit authorities. To say nothing of the political cost of expropriation.

The MTR can operate without direct government subsidy due to real estate income, unlike the TTC or GO; but that model relies on the government owning all land, which allows MTR to get cheap land leases & development rights at pre-transit costs, which is impossible to emulate in Ontario. It would be as if Metrolinx could buy land along Eglinton, after Line 5 had already been announced, at prices that did not reflect the future line’s impact on current land value. In some cases, MTR has received cheap rights, after the line had already been opened. The HK government is the majority shareholder of MTR. It's effectively state-owned.
 

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