GO Transit: Construction Projects (Metrolinx, various)

[44 North]

The latest information coming out of Metrolinx and Verster said, for example on the Stouffville line, the new GO RER stations like Lawerence East (the local ones) would see 4 trains per hour.

60 / 4 = 15 minutes.

This was always the plan. Metrolinx is trying to save face in the recent allegations about their approval process for some station analysis being flawed (not taking into account for local/express service levels) but it was always the plan.

Just look at the station designs for Lawerence East etc, they are short platforms. They can't fit a bilevel 12 car train. The plan all along was to have them bypass the stations.

Remember, the Express and local trains will be almost fully separate. A local train would stop at Unionville and turn around. An express train would bypass all stations after Unionville, stop at maybe Kennedy and go to Union.

This would mean only Kennedy would see service levels higher than the two separate services and one of the only places where the Express and Local trains would converge.

Hypothetically, according to the latest info in news articles from Metrolinx.

It's not clear to me whether the new format is still 15 minute headways, with some stopping and some express, or a higher number of trains per hour with locals following the expresses.

For an example of what express may mean, see this schedule in Chicago. You have a 25 minute headway, but three trains in that 25 minute span. The first runs express to the outermost stops, the next follows right behind, starting to make stops partway out, the last doing the local stops close in.

I suspect ML is still trying to figure this out. It may mean some triple tracking sooner than planned.

- Paul

Hm, might have to see a diagram of this service patter cuz I'm still wrapping my head around it. I guess it will be three services, all doing separate things. RER local, RER express, then interspersed with normal GO. Presumably with different fare tiers. Though to be fair this is more like a series of projects, and things will come out in the wash when we get a private partner. But am wondering whether - at least for its first ten years - all-stop service might be the way to go, maybe with the first four cars being "local" for stations with shorter platforms.

Not the right thread for it, but am I wrong for thinking we should have a private partner and harder details decided by now? RER was promised 4yrs ago, electrification over 10, and it will be a another year or two before we know how it works. Seems like a long time. Obviously not DRL-type of extended timeframe, but still. One of the reasons I'm fond of Mtl's REM. Was like they had loose ends and questions answered before public presentation.

 

[SaugeenJunction]

Good news:

Request for Qualifications Issued for Lakeshore East – West Corridor Expansion Project

 

[Allandale25]

^ I feel bad for Paul. So many RFQs/RFPs to update his tracking chart with

 

[raptor]

Whats the difference between this and what was posted a few days ago, pardon my ignorance.

same one

 

[crs1026]

^ I feel bad for Paul. So many RFQs/RFPs to update his tracking chart with

The closer these get to shovels in the ground, the happier I am

- Paul

 

[robmausser]

Hm, might have to see a diagram of this service patter cuz I'm still wrapping my head around it. I guess it will be three services, all doing separate things. RER local, RER express, then interspersed with normal GO. Presumably with different fare tiers. Though to be fair this is more like a series of projects, and things will come out in the wash when we get a private partner. But am wondering whether - at least for its first ten years - all-stop service might be the way to go, maybe with the first four cars being "local" for stations with shorter platforms.

Not the right thread for it, but am I wrong for thinking we should have a private partner and harder details decided by now? RER was promised 4yrs ago, electrification over 10, and it will be a another year or two before we know how it works. Seems like a long time. Obviously not DRL-type of extended timeframe, but still. One of the reasons I'm fond of Mtl's REM. Was like they had loose ends and questions answered before public presentation.

Whatever the case, Metrolinx promised 15 minutes or better on the RER stations in this latest proposal with the express services. So I am holding them to that.

 

[mdrejhon]

That article lays the whole thing out well. But to beat a not-yet-dead horse - if ML’s latest model is saying that most of the potential customers at Park Lawn are already heading to Mimico, and moving the station will not add more riders, I’m gobsmacked.

There are two different station analyses required. One is whether growth in development in the 905 now justifies adding intermediate stops to the original service plan, and what is the optimal spacing of these, given that (for now) the primary consideration is linking these places to the downtown.

The other is what the optimal spacing and placement of stations is within the 416, to best integrate GO to its municipal transit. This needs to be a whole blank sheet look at all the GO stations within the 416. It’s quite reasonable that GO might need to move stations around to match today’s transit flows and development, which has changed a lot since the original GO stations were placed in 1967. That may abandon capital invested in the original stations, but it is necessary. York U is one example, Etobicoke North is another, and Mimico is another. UPE at Weston is another. There will be winners and losers.

I deplore politicians mucking around in this - but - ML is not a law unto itself. It’s a bureaucracy, and its studies and analyses will need challenge otherwise all the usual dysfunctions of bureaucracy will prevail. There is nothing wrong with Humber Bay making political noise, just as Davenport residents had to in order to mitigate what ML wanted to do to them. Residents have a right to seek an override when the bureaucracy fails them.

Yeah, I can see a Park Lawn street sign from my front porch, so I’m partisan, but I don’t think this community is being selfish.

- Paul

Since I need to go to Park Lawn for a visit sometime.

Mimic only 1.2 kilometers "further" my ass -- it's a 3x longer walk from most of Park Lawn.

There is NO way to walk fast to Mimico from a central part of Park Lawn -- you gotta walk to the opposite end of Mimico just to enter Mimico from Park Lawn.

You'd have to expropriate a lot of houses to create a much faster walk to Mimico, and even so, would still only save 5-8 minute walk.

It's really is truly a no-brainer, from a walkability perspectively.

 

[dowlingm]

From a walkability perspective perhaps but from an economic perspective it seems bonkers. Metrolinx could hand TTC the cash to build the streetcar bridge to allow Lake Shore service between Colborne Lodge and Park Lawn and still have $ to spare. If this goes ahead a lot of communities previously told “No” will expect “Yes” to their station proposals.

 

[crs1026]

From a walkability perspective perhaps but from an economic perspective it seems bonkers. Metrolinx could hand TTC the cash to build the streetcar bridge to allow Lake Shore service between Colborne Lodge and Park Lawn and still have $ to spare. If this goes ahead a lot of communities previously told “No” will expect “Yes” to their station proposals.

What's bonkers is that everyone who purchased a condo unit at Humber Bay over the past 20 years paid a sum of money hidden in their purchase price which the developers acccumulated and then turned over to the City as "Development Charges". And the City gave them nothing in return. School? Nope. Transit? Nada. Roads? Barely. Sewers? Apparently not, what was provided has proven insufficient. It's the most unplanned, untended new community in the city. Even the Waterfront LRT is hardly a win for the community - it will add capacity, but not speed, to the Humber Bay to Downtown transit picture. Opening date, not yet determined.

So, basically, yes, government has assembled an envelope of money which they rightfully need to pour back into the Humber Bay community in some fashion. The residents appear to agree that the best use of that money is to improve transit.

Seems to me like the right place to spend the money. If other neighbourhoods ask, what do we get for our development charges, that's a very appropriate question too.

- Paul

 

[dowlingm]

What's bonkers is that everyone who purchased a condo unit at Humber Bay over the past 20 years paid a sum of money hidden in their purchase price which the developers acccumulated and then turned over to the City as "Development Charges". And the City gave them nothing in return. School? Nope. Transit? Nada. Roads? Barely. Sewers? Apparently not, what was provided has proven insufficient. It's the most unplanned, untended new community in the city. Even the Waterfront LRT is hardly a win for the community - it will add capacity, but not speed, to the Humber Bay to Downtown transit picture. Opening date, not yet determined.

So, basically, yes, government has assembled an envelope of money which they rightfully need to pour back into the Humber Bay community in some fashion. The residents appear to agree that the best use of that money is to improve transit.

Seems to me like the right place to spend the money. If other neighbourhoods ask, what do we get for our development charges, that's a very appropriate question too.

- Paul

Don’t paint me as someone who doesn’t want to improve transit for people down there, but at the same time I’m not going to assume a GO station fixes the problem especially if it is a limited service (which track time is likely to dictate) but which cannibalizes service to Mimico.

 

[crs1026]

Don’t paint me as someone who doesn’t want to improve transit for people down there, but at the same time I’m not going to assume a GO station fixes the problem especially if it is a limited service (which track time is likely to dictate) but which cannibalizes service to Mimico.

I agree that the split-service plan does not serve either location appropriately.

I'm not sure that service to Mimico made sense even in 1967. It was a stop in the CN commuter train days, but that's a long time ago with a different ridership profile. I may know someone who might know about that, I will ask them next time I see them.

TTC doesn't serve it well, and the potential growth in highrise is predicated on rezoning of employment lands, which the City is fighting. The existing "new" buildings around the station are seniors' residences, which is not a GO market. The one building actually under way is stalled - developer went broke, and is unlikely to recover. It's an ugly hole in the ground. GO may have legal reasons to not back away from the earlier announced partnership - but it's what they should do.

It would be interesting to do a "sidewalk survey" of people getting on at Mimico. I bet many would have no issue with Park Lawn.

- Paul

 

[mdrejhon]

I agree that the split-service plan does not serve either location appropriately.

One can't assume the frequency of the split service permanently.

In 20 years (10 years after Park Lawn built) -- with one extra track in the corridor, it might be a 7.5 minute split service to Oakville, in a Paris RER-B style fashion. Where some stations have 7.5 minute service and others have 15-minute service. Or some other multilayered service plan similar to Paris RER B.

Having personally been to Paris myself, and actually ridden on a real RER already, I think that split service concepts are a good idea once we reach metro-like frequencies.

 

[Filip]

Don’t paint me as someone who doesn’t want to improve transit for people down there, but at the same time I’m not going to assume a GO station fixes the problem especially if it is a limited service (which track time is likely to dictate) but which cannibalizes service to Mimico.

It certainly fixes the problem for many people - because the current situation is unsustainable and getting people off the roads should be the number one priority down there.

I challenge you to go to Mimico at 5PM and just look at how many people get into their cars or start the long walk east. There were some unofficial Metrolinx numbers that Milczyn presented once which showed only 300 people daily from the Mimico area actually use Mimico station. The rest is from elsewhere. Do with that information what you will, but it certainly doesn't seem like a business case to keep that station open.

 

[Filip]

What's bonkers is that everyone who purchased a condo unit at Humber Bay over the past 20 years paid a sum of money hidden in their purchase price which the developers acccumulated and then turned over to the City as "Development Charges". And the City gave them nothing in return. School? Nope. Transit? Nada. Roads? Barely. Sewers? Apparently not, what was provided has proven insufficient. It's the most unplanned, untended new community in the city. Even the Waterfront LRT is hardly a win for the community - it will add capacity, but not speed, to the Humber Bay to Downtown transit picture. Opening date, not yet determined.

So, basically, yes, government has assembled an envelope of money which they rightfully need to pour back into the Humber Bay community in some fashion. The residents appear to agree that the best use of that money is to improve transit.

Seems to me like the right place to spend the money. If other neighbourhoods ask, what do we get for our development charges, that's a very appropriate question too.

- Paul

There is an active lawsuit atm from a few of the new condos around Brookers Lane because the city installed narrower sewer pipes than what the developers insisted on, and now there's backups in parking garages.

Just one example, of many.

Another condo is suing Hydro One and Toronto Hydro for brownouts that fried their electrical systems. Too late for that third feeder line for those residents.

All in all, there is a concerted effort from all condo boards to hold the city to task over these lack of investments. There will be many more lawsuits coming up, including from my board.

 

[TOareaFan]

It certainly fixes the problem for many people - because the current situation is unsustainable and getting people off the roads should be the number one priority down there.

I challenge you to go to Mimico at 5PM and just look at how many people get into their cars or start the long walk east. There were some unofficial Metrolinx numbers that Milczyn presented once which showed only 300 people daily from the Mimico area actually use Mimico station. The rest is from elsewhere. Do with that information what you will, but it certainly doesn't seem like a business case to keep that station open.

do you know:

a) who and how that ridership "study" was conducted?
b) 300 out of how many are local?
c) is "elsewhere" one place or just "not within walking distance of Mimico station"?