GO Transit: Construction Projects (Metrolinx, various)

[drum118]

I don't understand what you mean by "if this was in the public sector". The project is being managed by Metrolinx, which is a public agency. Is it not in the public sector in your mind because Bonfield is the contractor?

Either way, in my mind this project is the responsibility of Metrolinx and hopefully some kind of system is put in place to prevent this from happening again or making it less likely offenders of contract failings are given future work.

Metrolinx is part of the Government that operates different than the true public market, but you are right that they should.

Do you think a developer would allow this?? This is poor PR.

The way Metrolinx has operated these past 5 years would not happen in the open market. The City of Mississauga kick the first contractor off the Transitway for less than what Bondfield has done and it went bankruptcy.

One would hope Metrolinx has learn something over these botch projects, but the change over of Metrolinx personnel is saying otherwise.

Given the track record of Bondfield on the various Metrolinx projects and Metrolinx not willing to remove them, something smell.

Someone at Metrolinx who is responsibility for contracts and projects should had put Bondfield on noticed years ago to the point they should had been removed 2 years ago.

If you don't have the right people in the right positions, you are asking for trouble and that is what taking place. Everything starts at the top and if that person is not on the ball, these things happen. Only have to look at BBD to see the same thing and they may have the right person in charge now, but time will tell.

At this time, I don't have much faith in Metrolinx and one reason I stop going to their meetings.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

The Bowmanville extension is years away from construction; the environmental assessment hasn't even begun yet. They are targeting 2024 for opening, so we won't probably see construction for 4-5 years.

Thank you alexander! So that's on the CN tracks then? My question is why are they building that when they know they will move in 7 years.

 

[Allandale25]

Thank you alexander! So that's on the CN tracks then? My question is why are they building that when they know they will move in 7 years.

They won't move the existing Oshawa Station. Just like in Hamilton, I assume some trips will go to Oshawa and others will go to Bowmanville.

 

[Allandale25]

Metrolinx is part of the Government that operates different than the true public market, but you are right that they should.

Do you think a developer would allow this?? This is poor PR.

I'm not disagreeing with you that it's an unfortunate situation for Metrolinx and hurts their reputation, but I can think of examples in the private sector and with private developers where projects are delayed due to construction and contract issues. So yes, developers sometimes "allow" it and face the consequences. I'm certainly not an expert so I couldn't say nor do I think the data exists to easily compare public sector/public agency vs private sector development/project construction.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

They won't move the existing Oshawa Station. Just like in Hamilton, I assume some trips will go to Oshawa and others will go to Bowmanville.

But the new oshawa station will still be built right?

 

[Allandale25]

But the new oshawa station will still be built right?

Someone else here might know better. My memory of what's happening is that the existing building will be demolished and a new one will be built.

 

[crs1026]

The Bowmanville extension is years away from construction; the environmental assessment hasn't even begun yet. They are targeting 2024 for opening, so we won't probably see construction for 4-5 years.

Say what?
http://www.gotransit.com/public/en/...rviceExpansionOshawatoBowmanville-Feb2011.pdf
http://www.gotransit.com/public/en/...mentalProjectReport-Oshawa_to_Bowmanville.pdf

The RER Business Case Analysis doesn't show the Bowmanville extension other than as something for "future study". I suspect ML was as surprised by the Province's announcement as anyone.

In any event, Bowmanville was announced as a 4-train peak diesel service whereas LSE-RER remains 15 minute electrified, to the current terminus at Oshawa.

I suspect it's truly up in the air with ML having to rethink the RER spec's in light of this latest addition. In any event, GO can use the new terminal in the meantime, and VIA will get good use out of it until some sort of HFR plan comes to be.

- Paul

 

[crs1026]

I'm not disagreeing with you that it's an unfortunate situation for Metrolinx and hurts their reputation, but I can think of examples in the private sector and with private developers where projects are delayed due to construction and contract issues. So yes, developers sometimes "allow" it and face the consequences. I'm certainly not an expert so I couldn't say nor do I think the data exists to easily compare public sector/public agency vs private sector development/project construction.

If you haven't faced a painful decision between pushing a delinquent contractor to the brink, and risking their just walking away - or dumping them and having to backtrack with new contractors, etc. you haven't done a home renovation. This scenario plays out all over in construction space. It's not unique to public sector procurement.

There is absolutely a tendency for contractors to get complacent with repeat customers who don't have a lot of other options, and once earth gets moved and concrete poured, public sector contracts have a relatively easy way out of problems....ie just go back for more money. But again, lots of private sector contracts don't go as planned. There is an empty lot at the bottom of my street where a condo developer demolished a strip mall, and then condo sales stalled...... the site has sat bare for 18 months, and who knows when construction will pick up. They are eating a pile of taxes, fees, and not seeing a penny in revenue.

The difference is, in the private sector the buyer, the contractor, and their lawyers can all get nasty in private, without the media jumping all over it.

- Paul

 

[gweed123]

If you haven't faced a painful decision between pushing a delinquent contractor to the brink, and risking their just walking away - or dumping them and having to backtrack with new contractors, etc. you haven't done a home renovation. This scenario plays out all over in construction space. It's not unique to public sector procurement.

There is absolutely a tendency for contractors to get complacent with repeat customers who don't have a lot of other options, and once earth gets moved and concrete poured, public sector contracts have a relatively easy way out of problems....ie just go back for more money. But again, lots of private sector contracts don't go as planned. There is an empty lot at the bottom of my street where a condo developer demolished a strip mall, and then condo sales stalled...... the site has sat bare for 18 months, and who knows when construction will pick up. They are eating a pile of taxes, fees, and not seeing a penny in revenue.

The difference is, in the private sector the buyer, the contractor, and their lawyers can all get nasty in private, without the media jumping all over it.

- Paul

But the biggest difference is lowest compliant bid. Public sector has to go with it, private sector doesn't. Contractors know how to game the system to reduce their bid down to the lowest amount while still being compliant, and then ask for the stuff they should have included from the beginning as extras. And that's if the RFP was written correctly. If the RFP missed something, they'll jump on it for extras like it's a Christmas ham.

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

Someone else here might know better. My memory of what's happening is that the existing building will be demolished and a new one will be built.

From the Environmental Project Report: "GO Transit plans to work with the City in preserving the oldest building façade section along Front Street as a preservation of a part of the City’s history in this area."

 

[SaugeenJunction]

Say what?
http://www.gotransit.com/public/en/...rviceExpansionOshawatoBowmanville-Feb2011.pdf
http://www.gotransit.com/public/en/...mentalProjectReport-Oshawa_to_Bowmanville.pdf

The RER Business Case Analysis doesn't show the Bowmanville extension other than as something for "future study". I suspect ML was as surprised by the Province's announcement as anyone.

In any event, Bowmanville was announced as a 4-train peak diesel service whereas LSE-RER remains 15 minute electrified, to the current terminus at Oshawa.

I suspect it's truly up in the air with ML having to rethink the RER spec's in light of this latest addition. In any event, GO can use the new terminal in the meantime, and VIA will get good use out of it until some sort of HFR plan comes to be.

- Paul

The addition of 4 peak trains in each direction shouldn't impact RER too much, as it wouldn't be too hard to squeeze a few more trains in there. I suspect that the Bowmanville extension will use dual mode locomotives, as most of the trip will run over electrified rails. The 2023-24 timeline is from the announcement. The largest piece of new infrastructure will be a bridge over the 401 to connect the LSE line to the CP mainline. If planning starts now, I don't see why the timeline couldn't be achieved (if CP cooperates).

 

[robmausser]

Someone else here might know better. My memory of what's happening is that the existing building will be demolished and a new one will be built.

The old graphic looks like a demolition

However the new graphic looks like they are keeping it and the Bowmanville Extension will be a spur

Which makes sense, because the initial Bowmanville extension will use the bi-levels in peak service only.

So RER will go to Oshawa, and the spur will be peak only diesels, which will probably run express from Pickering to Union.

 

[crs1026]

It will be interesting to see how the Bowmanville trains are interleaved with Oshawa service.

I know so many people who drive to the Oshawa GO station from further east to commute to downtown. I'm fairly certain that these four trains will be pretty full right from the get-go. The Oshawa parking lot may be a little emptier. Anyways, these trains are likely to have lots of passengers on them. Running express from Pickering (once the third track is available) makes a lot of sense.

- Paul

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Say what?
http://www.gotransit.com/public/en/...rviceExpansionOshawatoBowmanville-Feb2011.pdf
http://www.gotransit.com/public/en/...mentalProjectReport-Oshawa_to_Bowmanville.pdf

The RER Business Case Analysis doesn't show the Bowmanville extension other than as something for "future study". I suspect ML was as surprised by the Province's announcement as anyone.

In any event, Bowmanville was announced as a 4-train peak diesel service whereas LSE-RER remains 15 minute electrified, to the current terminus at Oshawa.

I suspect it's truly up in the air with ML having to rethink the RER spec's in light of this latest addition. In any event, GO can use the new terminal in the meantime, and VIA will get good use out of it until some sort of HFR plan comes to be.

- Paul

The addition of 4 peak trains in each direction shouldn't impact RER too much, as it wouldn't be too hard to squeeze a few more trains in there. I suspect that the Bowmanville extension will use dual mode locomotives, as most of the trip will run over electrified rails. The 2023-24 timeline is from the announcement. The largest piece of new infrastructure will be a bridge over the 401 to connect the LSE line to the CP mainline. If planning starts now, I don't see why the timeline couldn't be achieved (if CP cooperates).

The old graphic looks like a demolition

However the new graphic looks like they are keeping it and the Bowmanville Extension will be a spur

Which makes sense, because the initial Bowmanville extension will use the bi-levels in peak service only.

So RER will go to Oshawa, and the spur will be peak only diesels, which will probably run express from Pickering to Union.

These documents do show there will be a new Oshawa station. This is also what is stated on wikipedia (take that fwiw). Will be interesting to see how they fit this in. The Bowmanville extension is on CPR tracks so RER is in a bit of a bind east of whitby.

It will be interesting to see how the Bowmanville trains are interleaved with Oshawa service.

I know so many people who drive to the Oshawa GO station from further east to commute to downtown. I'm fairly certain that these four trains will be pretty full right from the get-go. The Oshawa parking lot may be a little emptier. Anyways, these trains are likely to have lots of passengers on them. Running express from Pickering (once the third track is available) makes a lot of sense.

- Paul

Just thinking the same Paul

 

[Megaton327]

From the Environmental Project Report: "GO Transit plans to work with the City in preserving the oldest building façade section along Front Street as a preservation of a part of the City’s history in this area."

I don't see a Front St anywhere near Oshawa GO, and the station building certainly doesn't look very old or particularly historic. Why would it need to be preserved?