General railway discussions

[lenaitch]

This assumes it was done for noble reasons. History shows otherwise. For instance, lines were ripped up to maximize profits. That's all well and good if you ignore the damage done by removing those tracks.
Imagine if we moved all long haul freight by rial. The answer everyone says is "we cant". Which is true, but it has been built into our world. We know Who Killed Roger Rabbit.

General Motors streetcar conspiracy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

When you are a for-profit corporation, maximizing profits is a "noble reason". Make your financial argument for nationalizing our rail network (re-nationalizing in one case - the State never owned CP).

 

[smallspy]

A map showing European freight tonnage by line versus North American freight tonnage by line might tell a more balanced picture. We use rail differently.

- Paul

Indeed, and that is a big rabbit hole that one could go down. Or showing lines by movements. Or passenger ridership. Etc., ad naseum.

THAT would make for an interesting series of maps.

Dan

 

[micheal_can]

When you are a for-profit corporation, maximizing profits is a "noble reason". Make your financial argument for nationalizing our rail network (re-nationalizing in one case - the State never owned CP).

CN also had lines that have since been ripped up. My point is that there needs to be a point where it should not have been allowed. You only need to look at how high tolls on the 407 have gotten.There was a time that it was about 10 cents per km, now it is over 3 times that much. Has that company provided us 3 times better driving experience? I know how capitalism works. I am saying we are living in the proof that the way it is working does not work well for consumers. It only works well for shareholders.

 

[dowlingm]

A map showing European freight tonnage by line versus North American freight tonnage by line might tell a more balanced picture. We use rail differently.

- Paul

Mmm. The difference though is that if a freight operator wants to start in Europe tomorrow it can acquire rolling stock, find customers, and bid for track time. It doesn’t get stymied merely because the route is physically owned by a competitor. The freight routes that do exist happen in spite of borders and differences in power supply, and they are converging their gauges and their signals and so on. America and Canada allowed the private roads to create their own borders of “trackage rights” and PTC implementations and rule books.

 

[micheal_can]

Mmm. The difference though is that if a freight operator wants to start in Europe tomorrow it can acquire rolling stock, find customers, and bid for track time. It doesn’t get stymied merely because the route is physically owned by a competitor. The freight routes that do exist happen in spite of borders and differences in power supply, and they are converging their gauges and their signals and so on. America and Canada allowed the private roads to create their own borders of “trackage rights” and PTC implementations and rule books.

Should we change that? Should we remove those barriers? Would it make our railroads better?

 

[just east of the creek]

I would say this differently. NA has an as-built infrastructure and human design and built form that is based on the automobile.

It's not an addiction, it's a design. We can't arbitrarily extricate the auto from the design any more than we can pull a chip out of a circuit board.

We should change the design. And then change the built form. Until then, the auto has to stick around.

- Paul

PS: Europe sure has a lot of automobiles as well.

All of the comments are very interesting. I am travelling again, and so little time to reply. I thought the map was an interesting discussion point, when comparing the ‘culture’ of train acceptance and usage in the EU vs NAM for passenger travel. Even as a visitor landing at Schipol or Helsinki, Berlin, Zurich etc the first thought is trains. Landing in Chicago or St Louis, the first thought is Enterprise..I think that is an uphill challenge for more, more useful, and more widespread passenger train travel in NAM. The use of the train in the EU for freight movement differs a lot from NAM as well (in my limited knowledge) And I think this does show that it is hard to make apples to apples comparisons between the EU and NAM. Many similarities and so many differences.

 

[lenaitch]

CN also had lines that have since been ripped up. My point is that there needs to be a point where it should not have been allowed. You only need to look at how high tolls on the 407 have gotten.There was a time that it was about 10 cents per km, now it is over 3 times that much. Has that company provided us 3 times better driving experience? I know how capitalism works. I am saying we are living in the proof that the way it is working does not work well for consumers. It only works well for shareholders.

It works in the sense that it allows them to be competitive because the don't have to carry the costs of property and infrastructure that is not profitable. Expecting them to hang on to hundreds of miles of property that is of no value to them makes no sense. If there is or was a public policy reason to keep a line, public money could have bought it.

Different rules might make immediate dismantlement less compelling. I have seen ROWs in the US that have obviously been long out of service but are still largely intact.

 

[Urban Sky]

Different rules might make immediate dismantlement less compelling. I have seen ROWs in the US that have obviously been long out of service but are still largely intact.

From what I recall, the way how Canadian property tax rules value tracks much higher than the land on which they are built, creates a very strong (and artificial) financial incentive to tear out the tracks of any routes, sidings or yards which see small traffic volumes. Again, I would rather fault public decison-makers (i.e., those who set tax rathes and mechanisms) than private ones (i.e., who have to follow tax incentives) for the continued shrinking of this country’s rail network…

 

[Northern Light]

From what I recall, the way how Canadian property tax rules value tracks much higher than the land on which they are built, creates a very strong (and artificial) financial incentive to tear out the tracks of any routes, sidings or yards which see small traffic volumes. Again, I would rather fault public decison-makers (i.e., those who set tax rathes and mechanisms) than private ones (i.e., who have to follow tax incentives) for the continued shrinking of this country’s rail network…

In respect of Property Taxes and Railways in Canada, this report to the City of Toronto a couple of years back provides a good explanation and hard numbers. While it initially focuses on Toronto/Ontario, it includes a jurisdictional scan of how other provinces handle railway taxation.

https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2022/ex/bgrd/backgroundfile-228478.pdf

There is no reference to taxation being different for disused corridors, though this may well be the case.

What is clear is that Ontario uses a model of a fixed rate per acre of land, where the prairies use a model based on tonnage, which would obviously become lighter the less traffic a line sees.

 

[micheal_can]

From what I recall, the way how Canadian property tax rules value tracks much higher than the land on which they are built, creates a very strong (and artificial) financial incentive to tear out the tracks of any routes, sidings or yards which see small traffic volumes. Again, I would rather fault public decison-makers (i.e., those who set tax rathes and mechanisms) than private ones (i.e., who have to follow tax incentives) for the continued shrinking of this country’s rail network…

I don't see this as a tax excuse. I see it for what it is, maximizing profits at all costs. Why do you think right now freight carriers are in talks with unions to change them from a per mile to a per hour wage? There are many subdivisions that would save the company money if it were per hour. The other problem is that they are not future planning/proofing, for anything except higher profits. Do you really think the lines through rural Ontario really are about the high taxes?

 

[Dan416]

Of course corporations are going to maximize their profits.

But the fact that the railways sell off their ROWs and then governments dismantle them is on the governments, not the railways. The first thing these governments do is tear up the tracks and build trails. There is zero foresight. That's the disappointing thing.

 

[micheal_can]

Of course corporations are going to maximize their profits.

But the fact that the railways sell off their ROWs and then governments dismantle them is on the governments, not the railways. The first thing these governments do is tear up the tracks and build trails. There is zero foresight. That's the disappointing thing.

Th governments don't dismantle them. Unless you have an example.

We did have a national railway owner that was a crown corporation - CN. Since it was privatized, I feel we have seen the most abandoning of railways in Canada. I sometimes wonder if CN had not gone private whether we would still have as much abandoned as we have now.

 

[lenaitch]

I don't see this as a tax excuse. I see it for what it is, maximizing profits at all costs. Why do you think right now freight carriers are in talks with unions to change them from a per mile to a per hour wage? There are many subdivisions that would save the company money if it were per hour. The other problem is that they are not future planning/proofing, for anything except higher profits. Do you really think the lines through rural Ontario really are about the high taxes?

Do you own mutual funds or have RSPs? Even your CPP contributions. They are only able to grow as investments by the traded companies within them making profits. Why should a railway be required to operate track that generates absolutely no revenue?

We did have a national railway owner that was a crown corporation - CN. Since it was privatized, I feel we have seen the most abandoning of railways in Canada. I sometimes wonder if CN had not gone private whether we would still have as much abandoned as we have now.

The privatization of CN was at or around the time of the government deregulating the railroad industry. I don't know the numbers but CP (CPKC) abandoned many miles of track as well.

In respect of Property Taxes and Railways in Canada, this report to the City of Toronto a couple of years back provides a good explanation and hard numbers. While it initially focuses on Toronto/Ontario, it includes a jurisdictional scan of how other provinces handle railway taxation.

https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2022/ex/bgrd/backgroundfile-228478.pdf

There is no reference to taxation being different for disused corridors, though this may well be the case.

What is clear is that Ontario uses a model of a fixed rate per acre of land, where the prairies use a model based on tonnage, which would obviously become lighter the less traffic a line sees.

I would have thought it would be the different rates applied to land with infrastructure on it as opposed to land made vacant (like a lot vs. a lot with a house on it) but don't really know. Also, dismantlement is usually a step towards divestment of title.

 

[lenaitch]

On another note, it appears CN has bought a stake in the Cape Breton & Central Nova Scotia RR, which they spun off several years ago. Some think this may mean something positive for the ~150 mile abandoned portion on the Island. The cynic in me says they just want a chunk of the scrap steel value when it is lifted. I recall something similar some years ago when they bought back their former Beachburg sub from the Ottawa Central RR only to rip it up.

 

[micheal_can]

Do you own mutual funds or have RSPs? Even your CPP contributions. They are only able to grow as investments by the traded companies within them making profits. Why should a railway be required to operate track that generates absolutely no revenue?

Are you saying people in the EU have no retirement savings?

The privatization of CN was at or around the time of the government deregulating the railroad industry. I don't know the numbers but CP (CPKC) abandoned many miles of track as well.

How has deregulation been for the average Canadian?