General railway discussions

[Northern Light]

It‘s not really useful to compare all of North America with all of Europe (let alone: its most densely populated areas),

Agreed.

but when you take Ontario and Quebec and strip away the vastly unpopulated Northern regions (e.g., the Kenora district and Nord-du-Quebec), you get a similar population density as Norway or Sweden, so maybe these are better comparisons than some of the most densely populated countries in the world (like Netherlands or Switzerland)…

To be fair, I think when considering Toronto and Montreal what we really ought to compare is Greater Golden Horseshoe (The Toronto commuter-shed), the same for Montreal and Ottawa and the corridor in between.

Based on the above, you would get a population of ~18,000,000 over an area of ~46000km2 which would give you a population density in the range of 387 per km2 which is denser than Switzerland (223 per km2)

Clearly we're not going to have Schipol-like transit integration/frequency/connections in North Bay or Sudbury a certain poster notwithstanding.

But can we reasonably expect that in Toronto, Montreal and Ottawa? I would argue we can.

****

Just to show my homework:

Population GGH: 10, 500,000
Population: Greater Montreal: 4,500,000
Population: City of Ottawa+ Gatineau: 1, 400,000

Total 16.4M plus smaller communities and rural population en route. :

 

[Metroscapes]

Agreed.



To be fair, I think when considering Toronto and Montreal what we really ought to compare is Greater Golden Horseshoe (The Toronto commuter-shed), the same for Montreal and Ottawa and the corridor in between.

Based on the above, you would get a population of ~18,000,000 over an area of ~46000km2 which would give you a population density in the range of 387 per km2 which is denser than Switzerland (223 per km2)

Clearly we're not going to have Schipol-like transit integration/frequency/connections in North Bay or Sudbury a certain poster notwithstanding.

But can we reasonably expect that in Toronto, Montreal and Ottawa? I would argue we can.

****

Just to show my homework:

View attachment 557346

Population GGH: 10, 500,000
Population: Greater Montreal: 4,500,000
Population: City of Ottawa+ Gatineau: 1, 400,000

Total 16.4M plus smaller communities and rural population en route. :

Are those populations form 2021 census data?

 

[Towered]

Agreed.



To be fair, I think when considering Toronto and Montreal what we really ought to compare is Greater Golden Horseshoe (The Toronto commuter-shed), the same for Montreal and Ottawa and the corridor in between.

Based on the above, you would get a population of ~18,000,000 over an area of ~46000km2 which would give you a population density in the range of 387 per km2 which is denser than Switzerland (223 per km2)

Clearly we're not going to have Schipol-like transit integration/frequency/connections in North Bay or Sudbury a certain poster notwithstanding.

But can we reasonably expect that in Toronto, Montreal and Ottawa? I would argue we can.

****

Just to show my homework:

View attachment 557346

Population GGH: 10, 500,000
Population: Greater Montreal: 4,500,000
Population: City of Ottawa+ Gatineau: 1, 400,000

Total 16.4M plus smaller communities and rural population en route. :

I think we should also keep in mind that the majority of Switzerland consists of uninhabitable mountains, so their 9 million people are shoehorned into a handful of valleys and the somewhat flatter terrain in the north.

 

[Northern Light]

Are those populations form 2021 census data?

The GGH comes from one of the Ministry of Finance commissioned numbers, usually done by Hemson, but I can't find the right one at the moment.

The 2024 provincial budget said 'over 10M'

The last projection I saved for some reason I didn't screenshot 'current':

The other numbers I got through googling.

 

[Northern Light]

I think we should also keep in mind that the majority of Switzerland consists of uninhabitable mountains, so their 9 million people are shoehorned into a handful of valleys and the somewhat flatter terrain in the north.

Fair enough, but the point would stand, that in comparing, we're talking about density within reach of current/potential passenger rail.

 

[Allandale25]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/construction-government-chignecto-isthmus-1.7175677

 

[micheal_can]

How many lanes are the autobahns through Berlin? What about the motorways of London, or the auto routes in Paris? NA is addicted to the car. So long as that is the case, we will never have a good reliable passenger rail network. We need strong politicians that are willing to say 20 lanes are more than enough.

 

[smallspy]

We spend a lot of time discussing passenger rail of varying types though UT forums. And we often compare projects, initiatives, current practices with other railway networks, often in Europe. I thought the attached map was interesting as it visually portrays the scale of the railway networks in NAM and Europe. Although there are urban railways in NAM, even in the most densely populated corridors, there is nowhere near the level of rail infrastructure that you find in Europe. Our urban planning is still fixated on cars and forms of public transit still come second and worse (could you imagine a ‘go slow’ order on the 401 of say 70 kmh……indefinitely, without being addressed with emergency repairs?). Compare the integrated transit options at Schipol (love that airport) with that of Toronto. Although Schipol handles more passengers (Nearly 60 million vs 45 million) the disparity in transit connections is much larger - excluding the car. We have a long way to go, even addressing the core issues, let alone the more questionable (in terms of utility) transit issues. View attachment 557320

A big of a nit to pick with this presentation.

The map of the US (with a bit of Canada tacked on) shows only the routes with passenger service.

The map of Europe shows ALL rail lines, not just the ones with passenger trains.

It's not apples-to-apples.

Dan

 

[Urban Sky]

A big of a nit to pick with this presentation.

The map of the US (with a bit of Canada tacked on) shows only the routes with passenger service.

The map of Europe shows ALL rail lines, not just the ones with passenger trains.

It's not apples-to-apples.

Dan

Indeed, a handful of lines shown there are freight-only (or simply disused), but I still believe that far more than 90% of the passenger lines shown have regularly-scheduled service (and quite a few minor passenger lines are omitted). With some exceptions like Corsica, Sardegna, Portugal and Albania, this map would look virtually the same even if all lines without regularly scheduled passenger rail services were removed…

 

[smallspy]

Indeed, a handful of lines shown there are freight-only (or simply disused), but I still believe that far more than 90% of the lines shown have regularly-scheduled service (and quite a few minor passenger lines are omitted). With some exceptions like Corsica, Sardegna, Portugal and Albania, this map would look virtually the same even if all lines without regularly scheduled passenger rail services were removed…

I picked out lines in England, Portugal, Greece and Spain as being freight-only, but that's only because I know their networks somewhat better than the others. It stands to reason that those with better knowledge of the networks of France and Germany - to name but two - would be able to identify their freight-only lines as well.

Nonetheless, an equivalent map of North America would look vastly different than the one shown. As befits the way that railways are used here, versus in Europe.

Dan

 

[Urban Sky]

I picked out lines in England, Portugal, Greece and Spain as being freight-only, but that's only because I know their networks somewhat better than the others. It stands to reason that those with better knowledge of the networks of France and Germany - to name but two - would be able to identify their freight-only lines as well.

Nonetheless, an equivalent map of North America would look vastly different than the one shown. As befits the way that railways are used here, versus in Europe.

Dan

Okay, I get your point: the North American map only shows lines with passenger services rather than the „North American railway network“, as incorrectly claimed. That said, a map showing the European railway network and one only showing the European passenger rail network would be virtually indistinguishable to all but a few rail nerds (like us)…

 

[crs1026]

A map showing European freight tonnage by line versus North American freight tonnage by line might tell a more balanced picture. We use rail differently.

- Paul

 

[crs1026]

How many lanes are the autobahns through Berlin? What about the motorways of London, or the auto routes in Paris? NA is addicted to the car. So long as that is the case, we will never have a good reliable passenger rail network. We need strong politicians that are willing to say 20 lanes are more than enough.

I would say this differently. NA has an as-built infrastructure and human design and built form that is based on the automobile.

It's not an addiction, it's a design. We can't arbitrarily extricate the auto from the design any more than we can pull a chip out of a circuit board.

We should change the design. And then change the built form. Until then, the auto has to stick around.

- Paul

PS: Europe sure has a lot of automobiles as well.

 

[micheal_can]

I would say this differently. NA has an as-built infrastructure and human design and built form that is based on the automobile.

It's not an addiction, it's a design. We can't arbitrarily extricate the auto from the design any more than we can pull a chip out of a circuit board.

We should change the design. And then change the built form. Until then, the auto has to stick around.

- Paul

PS: Europe sure has a lot of automobiles as well.

This assumes it was done for noble reasons. History shows otherwise. For instance, lines were ripped up to maximize profits. That's all well and good if you ignore the damage done by removing those tracks.
Imagine if we moved all long haul freight by rial. The answer everyone says is "we cant". Which is true, but it has been built into our world. We know Who Killed Roger Rabbit.

General Motors streetcar conspiracy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Allandale25]

Grade separation now open.