General cycling issues (Is Toronto bike friendly?)

[Northern Light]

@Northern Light light is what we need in this darkness. If I understand you correctly it can be put In essence, the author is expressing a kind of detached familiarity with whatever is being discussed, grounded in their past experiences. They're neither overly excited nor overly concerned, suggesting a "wait-and-see" approach.

I would not say I'm not concerned.

Best case scenario (nothing happens to the bike lanes).......this will have consumed media space, public consciousness, served as a wedge issue and a distraction, and cost 7-figures worth of staff time between the province and Toronto and to a lesser degree other municipalities.

Worst case scenario is obvious enough,

With the remaining possible outcomes being something in between which will leave just about everyone unhappy.

***

I don't want to get into the weeds on this at this point for a number of reasons. I'll simply say, I've been an advocate for improved public policy on a number of fronts for......wow.....I guess we're well over 30 years now.

Some of my ideas have come forward and still exist today; some came forward and were then reversed, in whole or in part.............others still were setback or delayed, but have since moved forward.

Whatever happens, the story isn't over. Its only over when you give up. I don't do that sort of thing, neither should you.

 

[PinkLucy]

One of my examples was to look at the people in the suburbs and where they are driving most of the time that isn’t work? Groceries, theatres, the mall?

I don’t see a single person at Costco switching to a bike trip even if there was a lane from their house to the store!

I’m that single person. And I have seen others. Not many, granted, because people don’t realize that it’s doable with a kid’s bike trailer. It’s actually a money saver because you have to be more conscious of how much space you have to pack.

 

[PL1]

I’m that single person. And I have seen others. Not many, granted, because people don’t realize that it’s doable with a kid’s bike trailer. It’s actually a money saver because you have to be more conscious of how much space you have to pack.

I'll bike to Costco to pick up a few things. I once went with my large camping backpack, bought more than intended, and had bags tied on the outside of it. Now if I buy too much, I'll Lyft home (because I use Bikeshare most of the time now)

 

[bearcat]

I'll bike to Costco to pick up a few things. I once went with my large camping backpack, bought more than intended, and had bags tied on the outside of it. Now if I buy too much, I'll Lyft home (because I use Bikeshare most of the time now)

I was actually pretty excited when they added the Bike Share by the Costco on Overlea and that was one of the times I biked to Costco to celebrate that .

 

[nfitz]

Their first saying that removing the bike lanes won't effect safety - and now protect themselves so they don't get sued, is the kind of stuff that doesn't sell well with the electorate - if they bike or not.

This may get fun.

 

[littlewill1166]

Speciality banning people from suing the province for injury or death caused by these changes is them admitting they know it will make the street more dangerous, but they don't care.

That's the default. You can't sue the government unless it avails itself to liability...

Nonetheless, you can still sue the driver if you're injured (for now). I got doored twice and got a nice settlement from insurance each time. It's also probably the most effective way of deterring bad behaviour on the part of drivers against cyclists at this point.

 

[turbanplanner]

I’m that single person. And I have seen others. Not many, granted, because people don’t realize that it’s doable with a kid’s bike trailer. It’s actually a money saver because you have to be more conscious of how much space you have to pack.

I don't think the number is zero! Just that it's not going to be a substantial amount, even in places like east york where density is a lot higher I'll often bike to a Plaza and only my bike is on the rack.

That's the default. You can't sue the government unless it avails itself to liability...

Nonetheless, you can still sue the driver if you're injured (for now). I got doored twice and got a nice settlement from insurance each time. It's also probably the most effective way of deterring bad behaviour on the part of drivers against cyclists at this point.

This will probably sound stupid but how hard was the process? Afaik the police rarely show up so it ends up being a he said she said issue a lot of the time?

 

[littlewill1166]

This will probably sound stupid but how hard was the process? Afaik the police rarely show up so it ends up being a he said she said issue a lot of the time?

In my case it was quite obvious based on the physical evidence what happened.

Just call The Biking Lawyer and they'll tell you what to do. I don't think I'm allowed to be too specific about what happened.

 

[bearcat]

I don't think the number is zero! Just that it's not going to be a substantial amount, even in places like east york where density is a lot higher I'll often bike to a Plaza and only my bike is on the rack.

This will probably sound stupid but how hard was the process? Afaik the police rarely show up so it ends up being a he said she said issue a lot of the time?

Were these plazas on a street with bike lanes? Your original point was that adding bike lanes will not change people's behaviour and get them to cycle more as opposed to driving. I am not necessarily saying that's false, but if the plaza was not a street with bike lanes it's not a surprise that plazas designed for cars (with a sea of parking and stores set far back from the street) don't see a lot of people cycling there, and does not in any way prove your original point.

 

[nfitz]

That's the default. You can't sue the government unless it avails itself to liability...

Not entirely true.

If the government is acting in a reckless or wanton disregard for the safety or lives of others, then they can be, and have been, successfully sued. At least federally. See Taylor v. Canada (Attorney General), 2011 where Health Canada was sued.

I doubt this act can avoid that, simply avoid some lesser suits. But I'm not a lawyer ... I only play one on Twitter.

 

[Natika33]

One of my examples was to look at the people in the suburbs and where they are driving most of the time that isn’t work? Groceries, theatres, the mall?

I don’t see a single person at Costco switching to a bike trip even if there was a lane from their house to the store!

Why assume you can't use a bike to shop at Costco? I can do a week's plus worth of groceries for two adults in one trip on my touring bike since I have a big front basket, paniers, a large flat back rack, and a backpack. I even once took a mattress home by bike. Add a trailer and I could easily load enough groceries to last beyond a month, or cart several kids to school, same as a car.

Moreover - and this might blow your mind - but did you know that Costco doesn't have a minimum spend? It's perfectly possible to actually opt to buy less on one shopping trip! I pass a Costco every time I go into the office, as do many in the suburbs, and frankly, I'd rather grab a few things here and there on a random slow weeknight than fight the weekend crowds just so that I could do a month's worth of shopping in one fell swoop.

But in a way you're right - few people in Canada now will switch because they are conditioned to believe a car is a necessity rather than to be thankful they can afford such luxury. I have a feeling the next generation won't be so lucky, but whatever, who cares about the poor or young so why build infrastructure that could help them out?

 

[nfitz]

Moreover - and this might blow your mind - but did you know that Costco doesn't have a minimum spend?

I'm not sure if that's just a joke, or minimum spends are actually a thing?

(I've never been in a Costco - don't you need a membership or something?)

 

[turbanplanner]

Were these plazas on a street with bike lanes? Your original point was that adding bike lanes will not change people's behaviour and get them to cycle more as opposed to driving. I am not necessarily saying that's false, but if the plaza was not a street with bike lanes it's not a surprise that plazas designed for cars (with a sea of parking and stores set far back from the street) don't see a lot of people cycling there, and does not in any way prove your original point.

Yes there are bike lanes east west and north south a block over.

Why assume you can't use a bike to shop at Costco? I can do a week's plus worth of groceries for two adults in one trip on my touring bike since I have a big front basket, paniers, a large flat back rack, and a backpack. I even once took a mattress home by bike. Add a trailer and I could easily load enough groceries to last beyond a month, or cart several kids to school, same as a car.

Moreover - and this might blow your mind - but did you know that Costco doesn't have a minimum spend? It's perfectly possible to actually opt to buy less on one shopping trip! I pass a Costco every time I go into the office, as do many in the suburbs, and frankly, I'd rather grab a few things here and there on a random slow weeknight than fight the weekend crowds just so that I could do a month's worth of shopping in one fell swoop.

But in a way you're right - few people in Canada now will switch because they are conditioned to believe a car is a necessity rather than to be thankful they can afford such luxury. I have a feeling the next generation won't be so lucky, but whatever, who cares about the poor or young so why build infrastructure that could help them out?

I honestly think 95% of it is comfort. Same reason the majority of dwellings have AC even though you only "need" heat. And yes, I laugh with the receipt checkers whenever I buy a single thing at Costco. I feel like people are mixing up "possible" and "preferable"

 

[bearcat]

Yes there are bike lanes east west and north south a block over.

I honestly think 95% of it is comfort. Same reason the majority of dwellings have AC even though you only "need" heat. And yes, I laugh with the receipt checkers whenever I buy a single thing at Costco. I feel like people are mixing up "possible" and "preferable"

This made me wonder where in East York there actually are interaction with bike lanes in all four cardinal directions. Looks like there is only TWO such intersections in all of East York proper, Woodbine and Danforth and Woodbine and Cosburn.

 

[bearcat]

As per my previous post, I discovered as per https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/bills/parliament-43/session-1/bill-197 the definition of a bicycle under the HTA has changed.

The definition of “bicycle” in subsection 1 (1) of the Highway Traffic Act is amended by striking out “a tricycle, a unicycle and a power-assisted bicycle” and substituting “a tricycle and a unicycle”.
The definition used to be “bicycle” includes a tricycle, a unicycle and a power-assisted bicycle but does not include a motor assisted bicycle.
Since there is no longer such a thing as "power-assisted bicycle" under the HTA, in my understanding all e-bikes are now considered motor assisted bicycles and are therefore.not bicycles but motor vehicles.

Bill 212 defines “bicycle lane” as any portion of a highway, the use of which is wholly or partially restricted or dedicated to bicycles.

But since now e-bikes are not bicycles the city can theoretically create e-bike only lanes (which must exclude regular bicycles) that can take away car lanes?

I am not a lawyer, but this kind of thought exercise was fun . I could be totally wrong here of course.

Ultimately none of this matters as Doug Ford can change the HTA or any law again, this is just for fun, feel free to ignore.