General cycling issues (Is Toronto bike friendly?)

[Avenue]

One thing that bugs me is how the 1 metre buffer between cyclists and car don't go both ways.

As a car driver I always try to give the 1 metre clearance from a cyclist, often only to see the same cyclist catch up as I move at the speed of traffic and squeeze up close alongside me further down the road. Shouldn't they instead pass on the left or otherwise stay behind until they can pass on the right with the 1m clearance?

Nobody said it doesn't go both ways. You took one bad cyclist behaviour and applied to all and took one good driver behaviour and again applied to all.

 

[nfitz]

Nobody said it doesn't go both ways. You took one bad cyclist behaviour and applied to all and took one good driver behaviour and again applied to all.

I've read the law, and I don't see any other option than ticketing the car driver. Which is frustrating when bikes pass pedestrians at less than 1 metre.

 

[esmcelroy]

And btw: As a general rant: Neither motorists or cyclists are observing the new crosswalk regs where *pedestrians* (cyclists should *not* use pedestrian crosswalks, violation of this is rampant) are to reach the opposite lane sidewalk before traffic can proceed. Mind you, very few cyclists stop for pedestrians crossing, let alone streetcar doors opening. But don't get me started on that one...

I remember hearing all about those rules and being very confused as to why no motorist was following the new pedestrian rules. It actually only applies to one specific case - when a crossing guard is present.

 

[nfitz]

I remember hearing all about those rules and being very confused as to why no motorist was following the new pedestrian rules. It actually only applies to one specific case - when a crossing guard is present.

No it doesn't; I think you are misinterpreting the statement that it applies at intersections when crossing guards are present.

Pedestrians crosswalks (when there is no stop sign or traffic lights) aren't considered to be intersections!

The law is very clear. See Section 140(1) of the Highway Traffic Act - https://www.ontario.ca/laws/statute/90h08#BK227

Pedestrian crossover
Duties of driver
140 (1) When a pedestrian is crossing on the roadway within a pedestrian crossover, the driver of a vehicle approaching the crossover,

(a) shall stop before entering the crossover;

(b) shall not overtake another vehicle already stopped at the crossover; and

(c) shall not proceed into the crossover until the pedestrian is no longer on the roadway. ​

There is not one word in there about crossing guards. (Or pedestrians having to point - another myth).

 

[W. K. Lis]

No it doesn't; I think you are misinterpreting the statement that it applies at intersections when crossing guards are present.

Pedestrians crosswalks (when there is no stop sign or traffic lights) aren't considered to be intersections!

The law is very clear. See Section 140(1) of the Highway Traffic Act - https://www.ontario.ca/laws/statute/90h08#BK227

Pedestrian crossover
Duties of driver
140 (1) When a pedestrian is crossing on the roadway within a pedestrian crossover, the driver of a vehicle approaching the crossover,

(a) shall stop before entering the crossover;

(b) shall not overtake another vehicle already stopped at the crossover; and

(c) shall not proceed into the crossover until the pedestrian is no longer on the roadway. ​

There is not one word in there about crossing guards. (Or pedestrians having to point - another myth).

What happens when the pedestrian walk off the crosswalk (diagonally) and no longer on the crossover itself?

 

[amnesiajune]

What happens when the pedestrian walk off the crosswalk (diagonally) and no longer on the crossover itself?

Is he/she still on the roadway?

 

[W. K. Lis]

Is he/she still on the roadway?

Yes, still on the roadway but now off the crossover.

 

[amnesiajune]

Yes, still on the roadway but now off the crossover.

"When a pedestrian is crossing on the roadway within a pedestrian crossover, the driver of a vehicle approaching the crossover ... shall not proceed into the crossover until the pedestrian is no longer on the roadway."

 

[steveintoronto]

shall not proceed into the crossover until the pedestrian is no longer on the roadway.

What happens when the pedestrian walk off the crosswalk (diagonally) and no longer on the crossover itself?

Is he/she still on the roadway?

I gave thumbs up to Amnesia's last reply, as it states the conditions for a *Crosswalk*, but when a pedestrian wanders off of that walkway, then they may be obstructing traffic, but still have the right of way. Ironically, North America, for as much as it's a 'car society', offers far more rights to pedestrians than many other parts of the world.

Getting back to crosswalks, the latest law revision that Fitz quotes is rampantly ignored, by motorists and even more cyclists, and I lose it with cyclists suddenly turning to to cross in pedestrian crosswalks. They don't look, they don't signal, they don't think. And then yell at motorists who don't read their minds. You want to cross in a crosswalk? Then get off the bike and push it, as required by law, as required by common sense. Motorists are dangerous. Many cyclists are even more stupid. I have to laugh at them all wearing helmets and doing ridiculous things. A lot of good that helmet does when getting run-over.

Make no mistake, I'm an avid and distance cyclist, but if I want to survive, it's going to take common sense, and reading risks before they manifest. Defensive cycling is the number one safety move.

 

[salsa]

It's 2017 and apparently this is how we still design bike lanes.

I'm sure the Dutch would have a lot more to say about this.

 

[nfitz]

The wide corner is a significant improvement on the current!

 

[Filip]

I remember hearing all about those rules and being very confused as to why no motorist was following the new pedestrian rules. It actually only applies to one specific case - when a crossing guard is present.

It's because there's no road capacity to wait until throngs of pedestrians are fully off the road to make right or left turns. Nobody listens because we'd have a traffic cataclysm throughout the downtown core.

Take the forever congested York street approach to the Gardiner. If cars weren't making aggressive right turns to get onto the highway - then you'd have that queue of red lights stretching up to Queen - causing congestion on every east/west road through the core.

It's the dumbest regulation I've ever seen come out of nanny state Ontario.

 

[nfitz]

It's because there's no road capacity to wait until throngs of pedestrians are fully off the road to make right or left turns. Nobody listens because we'd have a traffic cataclysm throughout the downtown core.

??? You can't normally make left or right turns at a pedestrian crossing. For safety reasons, they tend to be either mid-block, or at very quiet side streets. Cataclysm? I can't actually think of too many downtown - most of the time it's traffic lights. Off hand, I can't think of any on King, west of Ontario to downtown. Or on Richmond/Adelaide/Queen in the same area.

 

[Filip]

??? You can't normally make left or right turns at a pedestrian crossing. For safety reasons, they tend to be either mid-block, or at very quiet side streets. Cataclysm? I can't actually think of too many downtown - most of the time it's traffic lights. Off hand, I can't think of any on King, west of Ontario to downtown. Or on Richmond/Adelaide/Queen in the same area.

That's because nobody and I mean NOBODY waits until pedestrians are completely off the road to make a turn - because you'd be waiting 5 light cycles before there's a break long enough to turn. Are you naive on purpose or do you not look out your window while at the office? I can see this disaster play out right now at York and Adelaide. Nobody follows this dumb rule.

 

[amnesiajune]

It's 2017 and apparently this is how we still design bike lanes.

Go take a ride on Highway 7 before criticizing. The bike lanes there work a lot better than any of the ones downtown IMO, and they aren't separated by anything except a buffer. The higher-speed traffic actually makes them safer IMO, because you're never in someone's blind spot for more than a second or two. The supposedly "unsafe" right turn lanes actually keep bikes safer at busy intersections since cars don't interfere with the bike lane in the middle of a right turn. AFAIK there hasn't been a single serious collision there involving someone on a bike, and those bike lanes get a decent amount of use in the summer.