I've been watching these threads for some time now, and I'm starting to get a bit annoyed at the bad ideas that keep coming up.
Bad ideas from who, Steve Munro? Adam Giambrone? Howard Moscoe, George Smitherman, Metrolinx, YRT/VIVA, Mississauga Transit, Brampton Transit, Durham Transit and GO Transit, among several other city councillors have all expressed interest in developing the F.H.C. into a priority transit corridor. Only the shortsightedness of the TTC brass cannot figure out how building this transit corridor would actually
reduce the total number of drivers/vehicles needed to service the area over time.
I don't think people proposing the FHC BRT understand the ridership dynamics. The FHC proposal will NOT divert substantial numbers of people off Finch. It would generate a fair amount of NEW ridership (this is not what you're proposing it for) but the diversionary effect would be pretty small. Why?
People are lazy. They don't like to go out of their way even if it saves a few minutes.
If people are willing to walk up to a kilometre in order to access a subway stop, I see no harm in walking 3 minutes north of Finch proper to a F.H.C. station. The gutting of local stops along Finch, which the implementation of FWLRT promises to do, will result in equal or even longer walking distances than that for many customers.
Finch is itself an intensely local route, as well as a crosstown one. Keele to Yonge will be faster, but what if you're going to Senlac? Will your BRT stop at Grantbrook (the side street that extends north of there?) ? If it does, it slows down the line and takes away from its sole advantage. If it doesn't, then the BRT provides NOTHING to that entire concession block.
You understand the concept of operating local and limited-stopping service right? Some buses will bypass minor intersections in peak hour (not surprisingly, long-hauler routes from Scarborough today such as the 39E and 95E bypass the area from Don Mills to Yonge on their routings), others won’t. Grantbrook (and Talbot) will have stations to serve the area from Bathurst to Yonge. Likewise a “Torresdale” stop would exist. The 104 provides regular service along Finch west of here running into the F.H.C. at Dufferin. Sentinel and Tobermory get stops. The stop spacings of the on-street busway through Etobicoke are roughly the same as what would be the FWLRT’s (except separate stations for Silverstone and Albion is probably overkill).
For that matter, how will the BRT handle Grantbrook? Grade-separated? You're gonna need a whole lot more than $10M/km if that's the plan. At-grade intersection? Slow it down. Close Grantbrook? That'll be even less popular than the U-turn-right-turn replacing direct lefts proposals.
Lighted intersection would work. BRTs come with transit signal priority, same as LRT. Overpasses/underpasses are needed for some sections but not the entire length of the ROW.
Now, how "local" is Finch? Well, at 43000 ppd, it's total 24 hour average ridership exceeds the absolute peak capacity substantially. 23 buses per hour is a crush-load capacity of around 1400-1500 ppphpd. 43,000/24 is 1800. In fact peak hour ridership in the AM rush is typically 8-10% of total- ballpark, 3500 or so -over twice installed capacity. Over half the traffic is NOT bound for the subway, it can't be.
How many riders of the 36 bus do you think actually are starting and ending their trip along Finch itself?
How does the BRT help this traffic? How much of it could easily be intercepted by BRT stations on concessions (almost entirely transfer traffic due to the lack of substantial traffic generators along the FHC - again, people wont' walk off Finch to save three minutes) and how much of it is walk in from near Finch itself (and thus unlikely to be intercepted)? How do on peak and off-peak flows vary in origin/destination pairs?
Considering a lot of that density/trip generation stems from the north side of Finch, even a block north of it in places, many will find the F.H.C. is more convenient to use.
The reality is, the FHC is not really a viable alternative to Finch itself. The BRT is not going to divert a whole lot of people off Finch. It may well gain new riders, but that's not what you're trying to sell it as. Finch itself will continue to be a route plagued by the difficulties in running a bus service near its maximum capacity. The "residual local service" will still be one of the busiest routes in the system- unless you try to "force" ridership onto the BRT, as they did on Sheppard. This is a strategy of questionable value; the distance to the FHC adds a lot of time over a similar midblock walk on Sheppard, and it's questionable whether people would be willing to hike as far to a glorified bus as to the subway.
Except that it’s not just a glorified bus. This mentality is precisely why 25 years from now half the city will be scratching their heads, bewildered as to why they still have to endure several transfer points to complete a one-way commute, often along routes whose scheduling are out of sync. That’s the railfan delusion in action, while little of it can live up to the hype. There’s absolutely nothing along Finch itself that the FWLRT could serve better than a F.H.C. BRT. Now here's some reality for you. The Mississauga BRT system is only part of a Greater Toronto Area-wide GO Transit initiative to create a high-efficiency east-west busway which will span from Oakville to Pickering. See Page 4 of
http://www.mississauga.ca/file/COM/AprilPICPanels.pdf. As you will notice beyond Mississauga’s 18km stretch of busway the line continues within the
F.H.C. as far as York Univeristy before heading up into York Region. So with the preexisting stretch from Keele to Dufferin, only 4 additional kilometres of the F.H.C. will need expropriating for the complete MCC-NYCC trek to be complete. And much of that is taken up by the Reservoir which can be bridged over.
It doesn’t take much therefore to build dedicated bus lanes along Finch proper for the 4kms over to Martin Grove from Weston Rd, followed by a brief elevated section overhead Humber College Blvd into the campus (this alignment at least provides a local stop to the hospital). The fact that both local and regional express routes could share operation within the F.H.C. corridor makes it very lucrative in alleviating a number of commuting issues. And the peak one way demand (which is always the measure of built capacity for transit) is 20,000 per hour for commuters driving along the 401 from Peel to Durham. Let’s assume 6 000 car trips are diverted from the 401, 1000 diverted car trips from other routes, and rush hour peak ridership of 3 000 approximately for a hydro corridor busway (based on usage of the 36). This amounts to 10,000pphpd. Add in 3% growth over 10 years and peak ridership is at about 13,500 already – well into subway capacity range. So the FWLRT’s forecast of only 2800pphpd is an embarrassment for the stipulated $1.2 billion dollar pricetag. Far more mileage can be eked out of that number building BRT ROWs instead.
Any improvements need to be on Finch itself. When you're talking about the sort of capacities you're thinking of for BRT it starts to get more expensive than you think. Put in trolley buses and associated electrical infrastructure (I think that would be the only way you'd be able to sell it) and the only savings is the cost of the rails themselves, which is minimal.
Trolley buses are not needed, but if they were, the wisest thing to do is build up demand for a service first before expanding it. The only reason Finch West sees so many customers today is because of alternate options for Rexdalians and Jane-Finchers whom face equally long and complicated commutes to get to the Bloor-Danforth when they're destined for the downtown core anyway. The TYSSE line will nullify much of FWLRT's ridership off the bat, and long-haulers from 905 West will have little incentive to transfer onto it, if it's
slow. An hour from Humber College to Yonge is just that.
The LRT is a dramatic improvement over what exists today. Your BRT proposal shortchanges North York in favour of building subways in a totally different part of the city. They're already facing an enormous fight over cutting local stops on Finch as is, and your BRT will never fly if only for that reason. It benefits few and the traffic will stay on Finch. And they will need to do something about capacity constraints.
Lol, spending 90 minutes on the LRT vs. a mere 45 on the BRT is shortchanging North York? By the way, all those local stops on Finch proper would stay in tact via using a separate corridor for the rapid service. Those who want to wait on the 36 bus are free to do so. Everyone else uses the F.H.C. Win/win.
It's a great idea, it'll improve transit in this part of the city dramatically, and I look forward to riding it. When you do the cost:benefit analysis for this part of town, the LRT is the clear winner.
For a mere 1331pphpd daily along Finch West, not likely. I could go to explain that post Spadina extension, post GO Intercity BRT (which is going to be built in the F.H.C., whether you like it or not), post Eglinton “subway”, post Georgetown corridor revamp, post Bolton GO with Emery stop and improvements to N-S feeder lines which defeats the whole crosstown purpose; that it will only be a marginal few that’ll ever have need for the FWLRT end to end service. But since you’re so convinced that it’s still warranted in spite of all that and a good use of scarce funding, I leave you to your brainwas… er, indoctrina... er, following.
