Finch Avenue West: Opportunities for Improved Bus Service

[reaperexpress]

The entire premise of people flocking to this faster bus in the hydro corridor is predicated on these people wanting to travel from a major intersection or terminus to another major intersection or terminus. Anything having to do with a 'local' stop is going to be subject to a lot more than a 300 - 400m walk north to the hydro corridor.

...

So now our rider has to walk to Jane and corridor to catch this faster bus. That is well over 1km away, meaning at least 12 - 15 minutes walk.

Your issue seems to be with the stop spacing, rather than the actual alignment. An in-median BRT with 2000m spacing would have the same issue. To compare alignments, assume the same stop spacing in both corridors. Given the same stop spacing, the people's average walk to BRT would be about the same, yet the hydro corridor bus would be significantly faster, thanks to 100% signal priority.

Here's some footage I took yesterday of the Finch Hydro Corridor Busway. Notice how buses on the busway almost never stop. I challenge anyone to find an in-median BRT or LRT that has such effective transit priority while inconveniencing other transport so little.
[video=youtube;g7-x7IGnvfc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7-x7IGnvfc&feature=channel_video_title[/video]

 

[Rainforest]

Your issue seems to be with the stop spacing, rather than the actual alignment. An in-median BRT with 2000m spacing would have the same issue. To compare alignments, assume the same stop spacing in both corridors. Given the same stop spacing, the people's average walk to BRT would be about the same, yet the hydro corridor bus would be significantly faster, thanks to 100% signal priority.

Here's some footage I took yesterday of the Finch Hydro Corridor Busway. Notice how buses on the busway almost never stop. I challenge anyone to find an in-median BRT or LRT that has such effective transit priority while inconveniencing other transport so little.

This is a good illustration of the transit priority for a totally separated transit line.

However, there are issues that have to be taken into account:

a) In some places, it is impossible to walk from Finch proper straight to the hydro corridor, regarless of the stop spacing. Backyards or industrial sites block the way. One would have to walk 200-300 m east or west along Finch, before turning north and walking another 300 m to the corridor.

b) At the same time, local (400 m) or even semi-local (700 m) stop spacing would limit the speed advantage of the hydro corridor. Note that at present, #196 has no revenue stops in the corridor (though it stops once at the railway crossing for safety reasons).

Combined with the fact that the hydro corridor runs along Finch West only for 10 km out of 15, it won't be possible to achieve any significant travel time reduction by shifting the line to the hydro corridor. My estimates: no more than 5-6 min saving if going from the west to Yonge, and no more than 2 min saving on a trip from the west end to the future Finch West subway.

For such a small time saving, does it make sense to overcome the engineering challenges (Hwy 400, Black Creek, the reservoir) and create a complex route structure (service in both the hydro corridor and the Finch proper) with potentially higher operating costs?

 

[W. K. Lis]

Your issue seems to be with the stop spacing, rather than the actual alignment. An in-median BRT with 2000m spacing would have the same issue. To compare alignments, assume the same stop spacing in both corridors. Given the same stop spacing, the people's average walk to BRT would be about the same, yet the hydro corridor bus would be significantly faster, thanks to 100% signal priority.

Here's some footage I took yesterday of the Finch Hydro Corridor Busway. Notice how buses on the busway almost never stop. I challenge anyone to find an in-median BRT or LRT that has such effective transit priority while inconveniencing other transport so little.
[video=youtube;g7-x7IGnvfc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7-x7IGnvfc&feature=channel_video_title[/video]

Number of passengers boarding the buses at the intersection: 0
Number of passengers exiting the buses at the intersection: 0
Number of people waiting for a bus at the intersection:0
Number of people at the intersection (excluding drivers in the motor vehicles): 1 (the cameraperson)

We should be looking at people, not vehicles, in determinating the future of rapid transit.

 

[GenerationW]

Number of passengers boarding the buses at the intersection: 0
Number of passengers exiting the buses at the intersection: 0
Number of people waiting for a bus at the intersection:0

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the number of stops at the intersection also zero?

 

[W. K. Lis]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the number of stops at the intersection also zero?

Exactly why it shouldn't be used as a template for a BRT, there are no stops nor stations.

 

[Electrify]

a) In some places, it is impossible to walk from Finch proper straight to the hydro corridor, regarless of the stop spacing. Backyards or industrial sites block the way. One would have to walk 200-300 m east or west along Finch, before turning north and walking another 300 m to the corridor.

We can also flip this around: Currently those who are north of the hydro corridor must walk to a through street, then down 300m to get to Finch. With my plan, many of those north of the FHC will simply have to walk to a through street and then to the corridor to catch the bus. Oh, and already stated about 50 times, local service would still remain on Finch for those with shorter trips and do not want to walk the extra couple of minutes.

Number of passengers boarding the buses at the intersection: 0
Number of passengers exiting the buses at the intersection: 0
Number of people waiting for a bus at the intersection:0
Number of people at the intersection (excluding drivers in the motor vehicles): 1 (the cameraperson)

We should be looking at people, not vehicles, in determinating the future of rapid transit.

Likewise, no one is getting off the subway at Yonge and Merlon (south of Davisville). There is not a stop there, so I guess it is a failure?

Besides, 1. This bus is designed to get people from Downsview to York U, not to this business park. 2. Plenty of people board and leave the bus at the stop at Finch and Dufferin which is about 700m away. And 3. My plan would incorporate a stop at Alness to better service this business park.

 

[reaperexpress]

Exactly why it shouldn't be used as a template for a BRT, there are no stops nor stations.

That's a terrible reason to ignore a perfectly good example of fast transit. A stop is just a concrete pad with a shelter and a sign. Adding far side stops at intersections would be incredibly easy, and would not change the effectiveness of the transit signaling.

a) In some places, it is impossible to walk from Finch proper straight to the hydro corridor, regarless of the stop spacing. Backyards or industrial sites block the way. One would have to walk 200-300 m east or west along Finch, before turning north and walking another 300 m to the corridor.

True, I guess that limits the stop spacing to over 700m.

b) At the same time, local (400 m) or even semi-local (700 m) stop spacing would limit the speed advantage of the hydro corridor. Note that at present, #196 has no revenue stops in the corridor (though it stops once at the railway crossing for safety reasons).

Combined with the fact that the hydro corridor runs along Finch West only for 10 km out of 15, it won't be possible to achieve any significant travel time reduction by shifting the line to the hydro corridor. My estimates: no more than 5-6 min saving if going from the west to Yonge, and no more than 2 min saving on a trip from the west end to the future Finch West subway.

For such a small time saving, does it make sense to overcome the engineering challenges (Hwy 400, Black Creek, the reservoir) and create a complex route structure (service in both the hydro corridor and the Finch proper) with potentially higher operating costs?

I agree that it's not worth the trouble of crossing the reservoir, so let's just assume that the busway runs from Signet to Dufferin. In this section, Finch has 16 traffic lights. Even with transit priority, an on-street BRT would likely lose a fair bit of time sitting at red lights, whereas a hydro-corridor BRT would be almost guaranteed green lights. Assuming we want to serve some local demand, there isn't much choice about stops. Stops would be at Norfinch, Jane, Tobermory, Sentinel, Keele and Dufferin. That's an average spacing of 780m between Signet and Keele. Between Keele and Dufferin there isn't really any demand, but I suppose they could have stops at (extended) Flint Rd and Alness. With roughly 800m spacing and full priority, the average speed would be about the same as our subway lines.

I would estimate that the bus could save at least 5 minutes between Signet and Dufferin, which is fairly significant. That would mean lower operating costs due to fewer drivers and buses.

 

[Voltz]

As should be obvious, that video was taken at a minor intersection where it is very easy to give absolute priority to buses, try taking that same video at Keele or Dufferin and see what happens.

 

[Rainforest]

I agree that it's not worth the trouble of crossing the reservoir, so let's just assume that the busway runs from Signet to Dufferin. In this section, Finch has 16 traffic lights. Even with transit priority, an on-street BRT would likely lose a fair bit of time sitting at red lights, whereas a hydro-corridor BRT would be almost guaranteed green lights. Assuming we want to serve some local demand, there isn't much choice about stops. Stops would be at Norfinch, Jane, Tobermory, Sentinel, Keele and Dufferin. That's an average spacing of 780m between Signet and Keele. Between Keele and Dufferin there isn't really any demand, but I suppose they could have stops at (extended) Flint Rd and Alness.

The stop spacing is about right, if that route was selected.

With roughly 800m spacing and full priority, the average speed would be about the same as our subway lines.

I would estimate that the bus could save at least 5 minutes between Signet and Dufferin, which is fairly significant. That would mean lower operating costs due to fewer drivers and buses.

I see a number of issues here. First of all, a 5 min saving (compared to street-median transit lanes on Finch) might be too optimistic. The segment in question (Signet to Dufferin) is only 5.5 km long. At 23 kph (estimate for the street-median lanes), that's a 14 min trip. To achieve a 5 min saving, the hydro corridor bus has to make it in 9 min, at 36 kph. Even the subways in Toronto reach that kind of speed only on the segments with 2 km stop spacing, not 800 m.

Moreover, the eastbound hydro corridor bus would have to make two left turns at points where 100% transit priority cannot be achieved: from Finch to the HC, and from Dufferin to Finch. That alone could add 2 min to the eastbound trip via the hydro corridor.

The route you proposed would not have to deal with the reservoir, but new crossings for Hwy 400 and Black Creek would have to be built. And potentially, the BRT might have to be grade-separated from the Newmarket sub if the latter gets more frequent GO service in future.

Lower operating costs could be achieved only if no parallel service runs on the Finch proper. That's unlikely, especially given that your route bypasses a major trip generator at Jane / Finch. With the parallel service on Finch, the operating costs will likely be higher than if all service is on Finch.

 

[reaperexpress]

As should be obvious, that video was taken at a minor intersection where it is very easy to give absolute priority to buses, try taking that same video at Keele or Dufferin and see what happens.

Yes, it's true that buses are often held up at Keele and Dufferin. The point of the video is to show that it's easy and feasible to have 100% priority using a separate ROW. The busway crosses Keele in a 5-way intersection, so it's no surprise the priority is poor. It's not a separate ROW, so that supports my argument that separate ROWs are a lot faster. Northbound buses cross Dufferin with a jughandle right after the Dufferin-Finch stop. There isn't enough room to put a sensor far enough away to allow full priority. Eastbound buses don't need priority since they don't cross Dufferin, yet for some reason they get it anyway.

If Alness were 6 lanes wide, it would make absolutely no difference to the transit signaling, because the reaction time for transit is dependent on the width of the ROW, not the width of the cross-street.

I see a number of issues here. First of all, a 5 min saving (compared to street-median transit lanes on Finch) might be too optimistic. The segment in question (Signet to Dufferin) is only 5.5 km long. At 23 kph (estimate for the street-median lanes), that's a 14 min trip. To achieve a 5 min saving, the hydro corridor bus has to make it in 9 min, at 36 kph. Even the subways in Toronto reach that kind of speed only on the segments with 2 km stop spacing, not 800 m.

2km spacing seems to have speeds more like 40km/h, but I see your point. Average speed on the busway would likely be around 30km/h. I guess I overestimated the time difference.

Moreover, the eastbound hydro corridor bus would have to make two left turns at points where 100% transit priority cannot be achieved: from Finch to the HC, and from Dufferin to Finch. That alone could add 2 min to the eastbound trip via the hydro corridor.

The route you proposed would not have to deal with the reservoir, but new crossings for Hwy 400 and Black Creek would have to be built. And potentially, the BRT might have to be grade-separated from the Newmarket sub if the latter gets more frequent GO service in future.

True.

Lower operating costs could be achieved only if no parallel service runs on the Finch proper. That's unlikely, especially given that your route bypasses a major trip generator at Jane / Finch. With the parallel service on Finch, the operating costs will likely be higher than if all service is on Finch.

But there will need to be parallel service either way, because it's unlikely that the spacing will be under 500m, which is generally the upper limit for local service.

 

[Voltz]

If Alness were 6 lanes wide, it would make absolutely no difference to the transit signaling, because the reaction time for transit is dependent on the width of the ROW, not the width of the cross-street.

Not quite true, you can't just interrupt the traffic flow on major street at random intervals whenever you want.

 

[Rainforest]

But there will need to be parallel service either way, because it's unlikely that the spacing will be under 500m, which is generally the upper limit for local service.

My understanding is that for Finch West LRT, the stop spacing would be 500 - 600 m. Same spacing can be expected for BRT if it uses the street median.

Most likely, there would be no parallel "local" service in that case. Stations on the Bloor subway are 600 - 700 m apart and most of Bloor has no bus service (except during the night time when the subway is closed).

 

[drum118]

Your issue seems to be with the stop spacing, rather than the actual alignment. An in-median BRT with 2000m spacing would have the same issue. To compare alignments, assume the same stop spacing in both corridors. Given the same stop spacing, the people's average walk to BRT would be about the same, yet the hydro corridor bus would be significantly faster, thanks to 100% signal priority.

Here's some footage I took yesterday of the Finch Hydro Corridor Busway. Notice how buses on the busway almost never stop. I challenge anyone to find an in-median BRT or LRT that has such effective transit priority while inconveniencing other transport so little.

First off, this is a dedicated line going from point A to B with no stop along the ROW.

2nd: This ROW serves only one type of customer and that people going to York University. With VIVA Orange using the ROW now, it will carry very few riders going beyond York in the first place.

3rd; Speed is fine for these point to point runs, but useless for local service. Speed seams to be an issues for most people considering they are not long haulers in the first place.

4th: If you live on the line or next to it, the stop spacing is not an issue to those people, yet they forget that many live further from the line, where the walking distance can be twice or triple. You try walking that distance on a cold winter day daily and you will change your tune. Become an accessibly person and that extra distance will be come more of a challenge to you.

Time to slow down and smell the flowers as life is too short.

By the way, did you view my trip video along the ROW I shot in 2009 just after the ROW open back a few posting?? Did you noticed what was along the ROW on both sides??


Time for ROW now the middle or one side of the street and long over due!!.

 

[drum118]

My understanding is that for Finch West LRT, the stop spacing would be 500 - 600 m. Same spacing can be expected for BRT if it uses the street median.

Most likely, there would be no parallel "local" service in that case. Stations on the Bloor subway are 600 - 700 m apart and most of Bloor has no bus service (except during the night time when the subway is closed).

The big difference between the Bloor Line and the Finch line, you have almost the same walking distance to a north-south route as well an east-west route for the Bloor line, but Finch does not have that at all. Also, the city core is a block system, where Finch have various types of road systems causing longer walking distances off the grid.

 

[reaperexpress]

2nd: This ROW serves only one type of customer and that people going to York University. With VIVA Orange using the ROW now, it will carry very few riders going beyond York in the first place.

How does Viva Orange diminish the number of people traveling beyond York from the busway?

3rd; Speed is fine for these point to point runs, but useless for local service. Speed seems to be an issues for most people considering they are not long haulers in the first place.

Speed may be useless for local service, but how much local demand is there from people going from one warehouse to another? People along Finch tend to be going medium to long distances, so speed is definitely valuable.

The Finch BRT should essentially be a sectional express line, making many stops west of the 400, and relatively few on the hydro corridor. That way it can quckly transport people from the west end to Finch and Finch West stations, as well as to other bus routes.

By the way, did you view my trip video along the ROW I shot in 2009 just after the ROW open back a few posting?? Did you noticed what was along the ROW on both sides??

Yes I have seen all three of your videos taken along the busway, and I have ridden the busway plenty of times as well. I am perfectly well aware that there is nothing on either side of the busway. That justifies having a busway that serves little local demand.

Not quite true, you can't just interrupt the traffic flow on major street at random intervals whenever you want.

Yes you can. In fact, the York U Busway already does this at Dufferin for pedestrians and eastbound buses - even though buses don't even need it. It's an unnecessary hold up, but the point is that even though it is done, it does not have much impact on traffic. If we want to actually improve the city's traffic situation, we need to stop forcing transit, pedestrians and bikes to bow down to automobiles. The benefit we get from postponing red lights to a time that's more synchronized is that fewer single-occupant vehicles will get held at a red for up to 10 seconds. That is far outweighed by the fact that it slows down buses full of people for up to a minute.