Finch Avenue West: Opportunities for Improved Bus Service

[Electrify]

If we could get separated bus lanes on Finch with 100% signal priority implemented, I would be all for it. However, with Rob "war on the car" Ford in charge, this seems unlikely. Odds are if any priority measures are implemented, it will be diamond lanes shared with cars.

It is also worth pointing out that this stretch of Finch sees a lot of industrial traffic, plus heavy car and bus traffic. If we could move some of that traffic away from Finch, it would benefit everybody.

Some of you are acting like there is nothing but farm fields north of Finch, and that I just idiotic. Along this stretch is three employment corridors, a social housing district, student housing quarters, York University, and a mall. The improved connection to the Yonge line could also releave crowding on the Steeles West bus.

There is a reason why transit projects are constructed along such places. While it may not be as convenient as along the street, it makes up for it in value. You don't have to disrupt traffic or displace buildings along a major corridor to construct it, and it is by far the most affordable way to build a transit right of way in an urban area. Considering its proximity to Finch and the places it will reach, most cities would kill to have the opportunity to build such a rapid transit line.

 

[M II A II R II K]

They could have the Hydro busses divert to Finch and back onto the hydro corridor again for it's express stops.

 

[sixrings]

Why not build a NEW road for cars on the HYDRO corridor and build LRT on finch... That way it isnt a "war on cars"

 

[Rainforest]

They could have the Hydro busses divert to Finch and back onto the hydro corridor again for it's express stops.

Wouldn't that negate their express function? If they spend 1 min or so for each left turn to exercise the diversion, they'd run no faster than regular buses / LRT that stay on Finch all the time.

 

[Rainforest]

It is also worth pointing out that this stretch of Finch sees a lot of industrial traffic, plus heavy car and bus traffic. If we could move some of that traffic away from Finch, it would benefit everybody.

Whether you add two lanes in the Hydro Corridor, or two extra lanes on Finch for transit, it would have same overall effect on traffic.

Some of you are acting like there is nothing but farm fields north of Finch, and that I just idiotic. Along this stretch is three employment corridors, a social housing district, student housing quarters, York University, and a mall.

Depends on the section. The area near Sentinel has highrises sitting right next to the Hydro Corridor. But between Dufferin and Bathurst, there is much more on the south side of Finch than on the north side.

The improved connection to the Yonge line could also releave crowding on the Steeles West bus.

That seems unlikely. The 125 Drewry bus runs south of Steeles West; it is sometimes standing room-only but never packed. Not too many riders take #125 instead of the packed #60.

 

[Rainforest]

If we could get separated bus lanes on Finch with 100% signal priority implemented, I would be all for it. However, with Rob "war on the car" Ford in charge, this seems unlikely. Odds are if any priority measures are implemented, it will be diamond lanes shared with cars.

Let's not forget that Ford's latest transit plan includes "enhanced bus service" only between the future Finch West subway station and Etobicoke. Sections east of Keele are not even mentioned, and Ford is unlikely to spend anything there.

If we look at improvements west of Keele only in the near term, hydro corridor is of little help. It runs parallel to Finch for 3.5 km west of Keele, then turns south-west. Most of the route would be on the Finch proper, anyway.

 

[W. K. Lis]

No bicycle lanes on Finch Avenue West at all, to appease the anti-bicyclist Ford brothers. They'll be moved up to the hydro corridor, at least where it runs parallel to Finch. Likely no bicycle lanes in the neighbourhood where there is no hydro corridor.

 

[gweed123]

Although I think busway in the hydro corridor for local transit is a not a great idea, I also think that opponents to this idea exaggerate the difference the 400m from Finch itself makes.

First off, I don't think we should have the same standard for walking distance for all forms of transit. A grade-separated transitway is not the same as bus-only or queue-jump lanes on the street, let alone buses in mixed traffic. People will walk further if there is more transit priority measures, and certainly grade-separation is a major transit priority measure. Otherwise, you could use the same walking distance argument to oppose any limited stop, higher-order transit service along Finch, whether it be BRT, LRT, or subway, no matter if it is on Finch itself or in the hydro corridor, because any higher order transit will ultimately involve longer walking distances.

Secondly, the hydro corridor will mean longer walking distances for some, but also short walking distances for others. It will not increase walking distances for everybody.

Finch BRT/LRT on the street I didn't mind so much - it was the plans for the on-street Eglinton LRT that bothered me, considering the availability of huge ROWs directly adjacent to Eglinton on both sides. Local rapid transit along Eglinton definitely should have been taken off the street, not only to save money, but also to vastly improve transit. For Finch, taking local transit off the street would not be as big an improvement, considering the distance. Finch hydro busway would be for regional transit mostly, which is important also, but don't expect to replace the existing bus service on Finch itself.

THANK YOU! Very well articulated post. I have NEVER said that the FHC should be used as a local transit route, nor have I ever said that the FHC should replace the bus service on Finch. All I've simply said is that a FHC express route would divert some of the traffic off the current Finch bus route, to allow it to cater exclusively to local needs. You want to get somewhere farther away quickly? Take the FHC route. You want to get somewhere nearby on Finch? Take the local bus route on Finch.

People are willing to walk a bit further to get access to higher quality transit. If an extra 2 minute walk gets you to your destination 10-15 minutes quicker, people will do it. And it's not like those who really don't want to walk that extra little bit are being FORCED to do it, there's still the Finch local route that will end up at the exact same place, it'll just take 10-15 mins longer to get there and stop 5x as many times.

The FHC route will divert enough long haul riders off of Finch proper that, coupled with HOV lanes and artics on Finch proper, will allow the local route along Finch to efficiently handle the passenger demand, as well as cater to the people who want that route to be local. In essence, by redistributing the trips along that corridor, the Finch local route becomes managable.

So I'll say again, this isn't an "either or" choice. It's not like the FHC means ONLY the FHC, and everyone on Finch needs to now walk to the FHC to catch a bus. It simply means that the people who DO want a faster trip, and who don't want to stop every 300m just to get to the subway, have an alternative route.

 

[Thoughtless Miscreant]

You want to get somewhere farther away quickly? Take the FHC route. You want to get somewhere nearby on Finch? Take the local bus route on Finch.

The problem with this is that the majority of riders currently want to get somewhere nearby on Finch and the local bus is already insufficient for their needs. Yes, the hydro route might alleviate some demand on Finch initially (although probably not much since there is no hydro corridor for the majority of the route), but what happens when ridership itself continues to grow? A bus in mixed traffic can only handle so many people.

I would much rather improve transit for Finch riders directly by giving them a centre lane BRT. This will speed up the route and make it more attractive for long-haulers anyway, and it'll have the advantage of improving service all the way to Humber College, rather than just to Weston Road.

 

[gweed123]

The problem with this is that the majority of riders currently want to get somewhere nearby on Finch and the local bus is already insufficient for their needs. Yes, the hydro route might alleviate some demand on Finch initially (although probably not much since there is no hydro corridor for the majority of the route), but what happens when ridership itself continues to grow? A bus in mixed traffic can only handle so many people.

Currently the majority of riders do, because that's all that route is really good for. Most people wanting to do a long-haul trip would just assume drive to Finch Station, because the bus is so damn slow. Give them a rapid transit option that will get them there almost as fast as a car (faster likely in rush hour traffic), and they'll take it.

And people think too linearly when it comes to this rapid transit line. The advantage with BRT is that the corridor can appear, change routes, or even dissapear for a brief portion of time, and still be effective. You don't need to have a 100% continuous corridor in order for a BRT route to be effective. Again I point to Ottawa, where the 96 Transitway bus, before it even hits the trunk Transitway at Lincoln Fields, has already travelled in: mixed traffic, dedicated curbside lane, dedicated lane along a 400 series highway, dedicated lane, dedicated grade-separated ROW, mixed traffic, dedicated lane along a 400 series highway, dedicated grade-separated ROW. It doesn't need to be a continuous route, and it doesn't need to be built all at once in order to be effective. The route that the 96 travels on has been under piecemeal construction for the past 15 years on and off. They just opened up a grade-separated ROW section a couple years ago, which bypassed a choke point on the 417.

Oh and by the way, during rush hour the 96 bus takes about half the time to get from Kanata to downtown that driving does.

I would much rather improve transit for Finch riders directly by giving them a centre lane BRT. This will speed up the route and make it more attractive for long-haulers anyway, and it'll have the advantage of improving service all the way to Humber College, rather than just to Weston Road.

A curbside HOV lane will have 90% the advantage that a centre-lane BRT does. Or go 1 step further up and do a curbside bus lane. I really don't get what the facination with in-median is. Curbside is easier to get to, is safer to get to, and is easier to get into/out of for buses.

 

[Justin10000]

The problem with this is that the majority of riders currently want to get somewhere nearby on Finch and the local bus is already insufficient for their needs. Yes, the hydro route might alleviate some demand on Finch initially (although probably not much since there is no hydro corridor for the majority of the route), but what happens when ridership itself continues to grow? A bus in mixed traffic can only handle so many people.

I would much rather improve transit for Finch riders directly by giving them a centre lane BRT. This will speed up the route and make it more attractive for long-haulers anyway, and it'll have the advantage of improving service all the way to Humber College, rather than just to Weston Road.

That was the proponents of the busway do not understand, or just ignore. The Finch route has a heavy local demand that is only going to grow. A busway in a hydro corridor away from where the demand is, and whatever small improvement(Hov Lane, queue jump lanes) is not going to alleviate the crowding, and definitely not offer 10-15 minute savings for the small number who travel long distance on this route. There simply will not be enough riders to make the busway viable, and the time savings isn't going to be attractive enough to divert riders to the busway.
The TTC already studied the idea, and dismissed it. I am more than certain it was included simply as an alternative, and I am sure it will be discarded again.

Improving transit on Finch is the best way forward. Talk of a busway in a hydro corridor only serves to change the topic on how to improve the transit for the strong local demand, to trying to cater to the weak regional demand in the corridor.

My first choice would have been LRT, but since Ford ruined it for the time being, the best option is median buslanes with signal priority, and articulated buses(possibly ETB's). The bus lanes should be built so conversion to LRT is quick. The BRT is only a short term fix. I have a feeling the demand growth is going to require LRT eventually.

 

[Electrify]

Depends on the section. The area near Sentinel has highrises sitting right next to the Hydro Corridor. But between Dufferin and Bathurst, there is much more on the south side of Finch than on the north side.

I didn't draw the lanes between Bathurst and Dufferin because of the resevoir. I probably wouldn't have done them west of Keele because of the subway expansion if it wasn't for the busway already there.

That seems unlikely. The 125 Drewry bus runs south of Steeles West; it is sometimes standing room-only but never packed. Not too many riders take #125 instead of the packed #60.

I was referring to traffic going from York University to Finch and points east of there crowding the 60 bus, more than the Drewry bus.

The problem with this is that the majority of riders currently want to get somewhere nearby on Finch and the local bus is already insufficient for their needs. Yes, the hydro route might alleviate some demand on Finch initially (although probably not much since there is no hydro corridor for the majority of the route), but what happens when ridership itself continues to grow? A bus in mixed traffic can only handle so many people.

By this logic, Toronto or any other city on the planet would have never built a subway, or to a lesser extent an el. After all, the demand is on the street, not below or above it. Oh, and let's not forget that in most cities, such lines don't hug the street anywhere near as much as they do in Toronto.

 

[Asterix]

Currently the majority of riders do, because that's all that route is really good for. Most people wanting to do a long-haul trip would just assume drive to Finch Station, because the bus is so damn slow. Give them a rapid transit option that will get them there almost as fast as a car (faster likely in rush hour traffic), and they'll take it.

I'd be curious to know where you are getting your stats on the Finch travel patterns.

There are barely 3000 parking spots at Finch station and presumably these are taken up in fair numbers by people coming from the north and from the east and not just people from the west who would jump at taking a bus running in the hydro corridor. That suggests your believed long-haul demand isn't that significant relative to the route ridership.

The entire premise of people flocking to this faster bus in the hydro corridor is predicated on these people wanting to travel from a major intersection or terminus to another major intersection or terminus. Anything having to do with a 'local' stop is going to be subject to a lot more than a 300 - 400m walk north to the hydro corridor.

Say someone lives on Tobermory at Finch. Right now they have a Finch bus stop right next door.

Suppose we do have this wonderful hydro corridor rapid bus line. Proponents seem to think 'hey, this person would be totally willing to walk an extra 300m to the corridor to get access to truly rapid transit'.

Sure, it is only 300m to the hydro corridor, but I don't recall seeing any suggested map with a stop there - a primary argument for the corridor line is fewer stops, presumably only at major interchanges.

So now our rider has to walk to Jane and corridor to catch this faster bus. That is well over 1km away, meaning at least 12 - 15 minutes walk.

Now since we are supposedly splitting loading between the Finch bus and corridor bus, presumably that means frequencies will be reduced. So after walking an additional 12 minutes, how much longer must this rider wait before a bus actually comes?

Given the choice between a bus a stone's throw away and a ride along Finch proper versus walking 12 or more minutes plus a longer wait for the 'truly rapid transit', can you tell me what the actual savings and benefit for this rider would be?

<Update edit>It appears Electrify's map on previous page does have a corridor stop at Tobermory, so that is probably a bad example, although that map appears to be more a plan for express bus service given the limited amount of actual hyrdo corridor running. Pick another location not near to a major interchange for the start or end of a potential rider's journey for my counter example.

 

[Justin10000]

From the Opportunities for Improved bus service on Finch Avenue report:

"From the standpoint of the majority of current users of Finch Avenue bus services, however, the hydro route does not penetrate major transit markets on Finch Avenue itself, and would generally entail considerably longer walking distances. Thus, while such a route might be beneficial from the standpoint of inter-*‐regional transit connectivity, it would likely provide poorer service for most City residents whonow use bus service on Finch Avenue"

Yeah, let's screw over riders on Finch just to provide better inter-regional connectivity for a tiny subset of riders.

 

[EnviroTO]

I'd be curious to know where you are getting your stats on the Finch travel patterns.

From thin air of course. All "obvious" transit enhancements not supported by transportation planners are justified using these types of "common sense" observations.