Fate of the SRT

[EnviroTO]

It could take any route, but the general consensus seems to be that the best option would be underground via McCowan Rd (and Scarborough General hospital).

Well I think most would not choose the current routing and most would choose an underground path. There are three main route possibilities:

1. Close to current route: Go up Midland with stops at Lawrence and Ellesmere and then running under the current LRT line into SCC (SCC is the third stop past Kennedy). This is the second densest route of the three.

2. Direct as possible: Run directly to Lawrence and Brimley and then into SCC (SCC is the second stop past Kennedy).
For me it would be as direct as possible... straight to the intersection of Lawrence and Brimley and then North to the SCC (only two stops after Kennedy).

3. The densest route which is still relatively direct: Eglinton to Danforth and north under Danforth and McCowan with a stop near Danforth and Eglinton (either at Brimley or Wetherby), a stop at Lawrence and then the stop at SCC (SCC is the third stop after Kennedy). This is the longest route of the three but the stops are at locations where many people are put in walking distance of the subway.

 

[DENTROBATE54]

I've mentioned Option #3 before here and still feel is the most logical path one could take.

From an Eglinton subway perspective, this would provide better transit service directly on Eglinton East, rerouting several routes and if/when a subways built the interchange would be like at St Geogre (directly connected) instead of what would occur at the current Kennedy Stn layout (a Spadina-like moving walkway would be needed).

McCowan/Lawrence is the most populist of the three Lawrence East options and wouldn't be a far commute from Cedarbrae/ West Hill at all. The SCC stop should have direct exiting onto Ellesmere Rd for the 95 bus. I don't know how we'd implement this seeing that the current STC Stn is 200m away. One solution could be placing the stop in the vicinity of the YMCA such that exits face Town Centre Ct to the east and the GO interregional terminal to the west. A long walk for the 43B/132 services yes, but given that it'd nullify a separate McCowan stop it's worth it.

 

[CDL.TO]

I think this more than anything is what makes the lack of attention to MCC/East Mississauga so difficult for Mississaugans to stomach here. An extension to SCC is nearly universally supported (I count myself among those who do), yet the prospect of extending the BD past Kipling always seems to be hotly contested as if the west end wouldn't see the same benefits because somehow it's more decentralized(!) than Scarborough.

That's not to say that regional rail isn't the right solution for Toronto's suburbs, but I struggle to understand why it wouldn't be good enough for the east as well instead of the numerous existing and proposed subway, LRT and ICTS lines.

It has a lot to do with existing corridors and though I can't speak for everyone, my opinion on Scarborough vs Mississauga isn't that different. As well, I'll point out that there's nothing "good enough" about regional rail when you use it in the right place, it's far superior. Consider it like GO rail versus VIA rail; is VIA "good enough" for service to Montreal as compared to GO?

Mississauga has the Milton corridor and the 403 corridor, allowing for the through-routing of an RER-type service. Beyond MCC is a massive amount of population and employment and areas designated for growth. Scarborough Centre has no obvious equivalent. If SCC was located at Kennedy and the 401, it would be a different story.

Also, a subway extension to SCC via McCowan would take 16 stops to get to Yonge-Bloor. MCC to Yonge-Bloor would be at least 24 stops, so it's not exactly equivalent.

But like I said, the approach to Mississauga and Scarborough isn't that different. Beyond Scarborough is the large population and employment lands of North Scarborough and Markham, but people who advocate a subway to SCC are also advocating terminating it at SCC (and not because they have something against Markham!). That's because, with regional rail, Markham and North Scarborough would be better served by an upgraded Stouffville line. Those people from Markham headed to SCC could use the 190 or a future Sheppard subway.

It's all about seeing how a network will work TOGETHER. Like I've said before about Mississauga... by all means, build a subway with the same stops and everything. Just have it run express after Kipling at very least due to capacity issues.

 

[Hypnotoad]

The option left off this poll but was included in the TTC's discussion/consultation period was the idea of removing the tracks and converting it into an Ottawa-style BRT right-of-way.

I voted subway because I hate the Kennedy switch and I think that this line would be great if it close the loop at SCC with a Sheppard extension. Dreams, sweet glorious dreams.

 

[Anth]

It has a lot to do with existing corridors and though I can't speak for everyone, my opinion on Scarborough vs Mississauga isn't that different. As well, I'll point out that there's nothing "good enough" about regional rail when you use it in the right place, it's far superior. Consider it like GO rail versus VIA rail; is VIA "good enough" for service to Montreal as compared to GO?

Mississauga has the Milton corridor and the 403 corridor, allowing for the through-routing of an RER-type service. Beyond MCC is a massive amount of population and employment and areas designated for growth. Scarborough Centre has no obvious equivalent. If SCC was located at Kennedy and the 401, it would be a different story.

Also, a subway extension to SCC via McCowan would take 16 stops to get to Yonge-Bloor. MCC to Yonge-Bloor would be at least 24 stops, so it's not exactly equivalent.

But like I said, the approach to Mississauga and Scarborough isn't that different. Beyond Scarborough is the large population and employment lands of North Scarborough and Markham, but people who advocate a subway to SCC are also advocating terminating it at SCC (and not because they have something against Markham!). That's because, with regional rail, Markham and North Scarborough would be better served by an upgraded Stouffville line. Those people from Markham headed to SCC could use the 190 or a future Sheppard subway.

It's all about seeing how a network will work TOGETHER. Like I've said before about Mississauga... by all means, build a subway with the same stops and everything. Just have it run express after Kipling at very least due to capacity issues.

Appreciate the lengthy response since I know this topic has been beaten to death over the years.

I didn't mean to imply that regional rail is "good enough" in the negative sense (I'm actually pretty excited about Metrolinx's recent REX musings); I was more puzzled by the difference in approach from east to west and I hadn't considered SCC not having an equivalent to MCC's backyard if I may call it that.

Thanks!

 

[scarberiankhatru]

MCC is further away than STC and in a different municipality that has not called for an extension...that pretty much sums it up, I think.

As for subway alignments:

1. running up the rail/hydro corridor to Midland and up Midland to where the RT swings over into STC. It's about 5.5km in total. This would require rebuilding Kennedy station in the diagonal hydro corridor at Eglinton, which is potentially expensive and disruptive.

2. running up Midland and over along the RT's path. It's about 5.8km in total. Midland would be an easy cut & cover job...they could even buy all the industrial units along Midland north of Lawrence and run it at grade. Midland & Lawrence has some towers and lots of empty land; it would turn into a large high-rise cluster with at least 15,000 people within walking distance. It could offer a real connection with Ellesmere buses.

3. running in the shortest path to STC, with a station at Brimley & Lawrence. It's about 4.9km in total. It'd be the shortest and quickest alignment, and if they insist on tunnelling everything on all alignments, it'd be the cheapest, too. More than half the length would be tunneled under houses...could this pose either technical or NIMBY problems? Brimley south of Ellesmere has absolutely nothing on it and there's basically no opportunity for redevelopment at Lawrence. But since the majority of RT riders are going straight from STC to Kennedy, it's actually difficult to argue with this alignment.

4. running along Eglinton to Danforth and up McCowan. It's about 5.9km in total. It'd intercept the Lawrence East bus sooner, helping more people get to the subway quicker. Kennedy's platform already runs E/W so going eastward under Eglinton is logical. A station at Danforth & Eglinton would be very well used and there's already at least 10,000 people living right there.

So, personally, I think it'd be worth it to run up Midland or McCowan. Even though it'd add ~1km and one stop on the STC-downtown trip, these alignments can serve more people. At the end of the day, though, a Brimley alignment is still perfectly viable and acceptable since a revamped Stouffville GO line could include a stop at Lawrence and since Eglinton will get some kind of transit upgrade, not to mention the GO station that's already only 1km away at Bellamy & Eglinton.

 

[Dan416]

Just for some perspective regarding MCC vs. STC.

Hurontario is 23.7 km away from Yonge along Dundas. While that's not the exact subway alignment, I'll use it as a general figure.

300 Borough Dr. is 20.7 km away from Yonge & Dundas.

Both these figures are from Google Maps, avoiding highways.

The difference in pure distance is marginal, in my opinion. And I highly believe in a subway line to MCC. Especially over VCC.

For further comparison, VCC is 24.8 km from Yonge & Dundas, using the same methodology above.

In summary:
STC 20.7 km from downtown
MCC 23.7 km from downtown
VCC 24.8 km from downtown

In my opinion, if Mississauga were a part of Toronto, MCC would have a subway by now.

 

[CDL.TO]

I too think Mississauga should have a subway.



By my measurements on Google while avoiding highways:
- Y&D to 300 Borough Dr via Yonge & Bloor is 20.9km
- Y&D to Burnhamthorpe & Hurontario via Yonge & Bloor and Kipling & Dundas (but not Sherway) is 26km.

If applied to the Scarborough end of the BD line, the same distance to get to MCC would get you Steeles Ave.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

But by subway distances, STC is 18km from Yonge & Bloor, VCC is 19km from ST. George, and MCC is 23km from St. George. Being 'roughly as far away' as some other point isn't enough of a reason to extend a subway line.

Still, Square One is probably the best place for the Bloor line to, some day, at some future time, terminate (forever).

 

[doady]

^ The Toronto area didn't not develop equally east and west. The west is far more developed, therefore it doesn't make sense for the east to be higher priority.

 

[Dan416]

^ The Toronto area didn't not develop equally east and west. The west is far more developed, therefore it doesn't make sense for the east to be higher priority.

Absolutely Right(TM)!

The west has for more people living in it. Peel has more people than Durham. Add in Halton, and Hamilton, and there's waaaay more people in the West than in the East.

 

[CDL.TO]

Saying that there's more people west of an arbitrary like than east of it is an extremely unwise way of planning things. You need to be looking at things at a much more local perspective: How do people move within a city, never mind how they between 8 cities! This is a local transit line we're talking about, not a new airport.

Seriously, the population in Hamilton has as much relevance to a subway line in Mississauga as the population in Kingston has to a Scarborough extension.

 

[doady]

Yeah, and even in Toronto itself, the section west of Yonge probably has more people than east.

That said, I don't support a B-D extension to MCC at all. I only find it disturbing that so many people seem to think Mississauga is the west GTA's equivalant of Pickering, which is ridiculous.

 

[doady]

Saying that there's more people west of an arbitrary like than east of it is an extremely unwise way of planning things. You need to be looking at things at a much more local perspective: How do people move within a city, never mind how they between 8 cities! This is a local transit line we're talking about, not a new airport.

The only thing is arbitrary is borders and distance. SCC is not a better than MCC just because it is a slightly closer to downtown and located within the city of Toronto, otherwise we should be considering a subway to the islands...

And if we do look at things from a much more local perspective as you suggest, than MCC is superior to SCC by far. MCC is a stronger core, with higher density, more development, an actual street grid, not surrounded by industrial wastelands, etc.

 

[CDL.TO]

I only find it disturbing that so many people seem to think Mississauga is the west GTA's equivalant of Pickering, which is ridiculous.

That is very, very true and worth repeating. If you don't mind, I'm using that line for now on!

Scarborough 600,000
Mississauga: 670,000 (!!!)
Pickering: 88,000

And if we do look at things from a much more local perspective as you suggest, than MCC is superior to SCC by far. MCC is a stronger core, with higher density, more development, an actual street grid, not surrounded by industrial wastelands, etc.

MCC is certainly a far superior "core" when compared to SCC. It's a greater destination and node. Does that automatically translate to saying that an extension of the BD subway is the best way to serve it?

I'd disagree completely that distance is arbitrary, it's extremely important. The first rule in geography is "interaction decreases as distances increase".