scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
Who voted for "do nothing"???
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Fate of the SRT
- Thread starter Dan416
- Start date
Panzerfaust
Active Member
Admiral Beez and Urban Shocker, apparently. The voting is public.
Someone (or two someones) have some explaining to do. *crosses arms*
unimaginative2
Senior Member
Do nothing isn't really a serious option, since maintaining the present situation would still require a $300 million+ refurbishment of the RT.
Voltz
Senior Member
^ Hope they realise that doing nothing (meaning no refurbishment) means shutting it down in a few years when the vehicles finally reach the end of their service life.
My personal preference is for it to be converted to LRT and entended and intregrated with the transit city lines at both ends. No need for the original mistake of having ICTS technology shoved down our throats repeated.
I would perfer this to a subway or RT because,
-less people would have to transfer from the rt to other lines if it is intregrated
-no more orphan fleet or line
-light rail extenson could easily be alot cheaper than an rt extension, with a more flexible design
-service would be just as fast as rt
-People do go to other places in scarborough than STC
-much wider area served than only 2 subway stops
-more riders would have to transfer to buses anyways at STC with a subway than a LRT networt
Although the transfer at kennedy would remain, it will be fixed up. But if potential ridership does justify a subway extension, then it should be looked at
My personal preference is for it to be converted to LRT and entended and intregrated with the transit city lines at both ends. No need for the original mistake of having ICTS technology shoved down our throats repeated.
I would perfer this to a subway or RT because,
-less people would have to transfer from the rt to other lines if it is intregrated
-no more orphan fleet or line
-light rail extenson could easily be alot cheaper than an rt extension, with a more flexible design
-service would be just as fast as rt
-People do go to other places in scarborough than STC
-much wider area served than only 2 subway stops
-more riders would have to transfer to buses anyways at STC with a subway than a LRT networt
Although the transfer at kennedy would remain, it will be fixed up. But if potential ridership does justify a subway extension, then it should be looked at
unimaginative2
Senior Member
That's the standard LRT line, and some of the points make sense, but it's important to note that the overwhelming majority of RT riders transfer to the subway, so only a subway extension can eliminate the unnecessary transfer.
I'm also not sure how an LRT would serve a much wider area, since the existing intermediate RT stations don't really have anything of significance near them other than Lawrence West's bus connections, which would be replicated on a subway line.
I'm also not sure how an LRT would serve a much wider area, since the existing intermediate RT stations don't really have anything of significance near them other than Lawrence West's bus connections, which would be replicated on a subway line.
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
I don't think very many people on this forum have a realistic idea of where people in Scarborough live or travel. The majority of people that use the RT come from the McCowan, Ellesmere, or Lawrence corridors (not Malvern!) and so will see absolutely no benefit from Transit City lines on Morningside or Sheppard or an RT extended to Malvern and will still be forced to transfer to buses. A subway extension would also be cheaper than extending the RT into an LRT network, cheap enough to leave money left over for LRT lines that make sense in the real world, like Lawrence or McCowan. A subway extension would serve the largest possible area by a huge margin, including Malvern and other areas that are more populous than Malvern, like Milliken. Anything other than a subway extension guarantees that almost everyone in Scarborough will have to transfer at least twice to get anywhere. LRT simply won't be as fast as the RT - the RT is already a bit faster than the subway.
I encourage everyone to go see Sheppard between Markham and Morningside for themselves and honestly ask themselves if over $2 billion worth of transit lines should be built there. I promise it will be truly enlightening!
I encourage everyone to go see Sheppard between Markham and Morningside for themselves and honestly ask themselves if over $2 billion worth of transit lines should be built there. I promise it will be truly enlightening!
unimaginative2
Senior Member
And east of Morningside, too. Remember, the Sheppard LRT would go all the way to Twyn Rivers! While they're at it, they should check out Morningside as a vital high-order transit corridor.
urbanfan89
Active Member
There's also the factor of the GO Rail network, once we see all-day 20 minutes express service. Someone who lives on Lawrence could take a north-south bus that bends over to Kennedy (like how the 190 bends south off Sheppard), get to Union in 20 minutes, and either take the subway or a Bay Streetcar (we should look into this, as north-south transit in the downtown core is non-existant) to their office in 5 minutes.
Panzerfaust
Active Member
...you mean other than the two subway lines and the Bay bus route, which this streetcar would replace at huge cost and little benefit?
Dan416
Senior Member
Indeed. A Bay streetcar would just be replicating the service of Yonge and University lines. It's not exactly far to walk from either Yonge to Bay or University to Bay.
In a few years, if we don't build subway to STC and MCC, we'll probably regret it, and it'll cost a lot more to do it later.
In a few years, if we don't build subway to STC and MCC, we'll probably regret it, and it'll cost a lot more to do it later.
unimaginative2
Senior Member
Yes, but there's no streetcar transit, for people who just can't live without their daily streetcar fix.
Seriously, though, an extension of the Harbourfront LRT north along Bay to Bloor was examined as part of the Downtown Relief Line study. It would run in a tunnel extending north from the existing Union terminal. It was dismissed as it would provide much less relief than other routes, and it also wouldn't serve any new areas. For its high cost (almost equal to a subway), it would have far lower capacity. Capacity underground would be limited to the maximum throughput of the surface sections, which would also affect reliability.
Seriously, though, an extension of the Harbourfront LRT north along Bay to Bloor was examined as part of the Downtown Relief Line study. It would run in a tunnel extending north from the existing Union terminal. It was dismissed as it would provide much less relief than other routes, and it also wouldn't serve any new areas. For its high cost (almost equal to a subway), it would have far lower capacity. Capacity underground would be limited to the maximum throughput of the surface sections, which would also affect reliability.
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
OK, then everyone on the Morningside and Malvern lines you proposed can take the Lakeshore East and Midtown GO lines downtown in 20 minutes and skip the half hour streetcar ride. You're saying that people closer to GO lines should use LRT lines instead, while people farther from GO lines should get buses to take them to GO stations.
If you assume 100% of downtown-bound Scarborough transit users can be shuffled off to GO trains, who on earth will be using the LRT lines? Rouge Park raccoons?
doady
Senior Member
But is that interaction only with downtown Toronto though? In other words, is the interaction just between the two points or is it multiple interactions between those two points plus a series of points in between? Because it seems to me that every single station of a Bloor subway extension could become at least a minor node in their own right (and some of these locations already are), but you can't say the same for many of the existing and proposed Danforth subway stations in Scarborough, and the stations are and would be very far apart too.
In short, yes a subway extension to SCC will very likely have more interactions with downtown Toronto, but a subway extension to MCC is very likely to have many more interactions overall.
Similarly, the point of the Sheppard subway is not just to connect NYCC and SCC, but also some important points in between. Otherwise, it could have been the 401 subway.
Remember, I don't actually support a subway extension to MCC, I just don't agree with people's reasons for also not supporting it.
CDL.TO
Moderator
Mississauga, including MCC, has many interactions within their boundaries with people travelling to and from jobs, entertainment, and shopping. The 401 between Milton and Hwy 410 is stop-and-go every day now, and that's only getting worse. It would not surprise me one bit if more Oakville residents work in Mississauga than in Toronto. And we also know that there are plenty of Mississauga residents who work in Markham and vice-versa. That's why need something that serves not just downtown Toronto <> MCC trips, but instead one that makes many, many more trips attractive by public transit.
The realities of the GTA are changing. The location of office development is based on two primary reasons: an "edge city" location allowing for cheap land and lower congestion (the ship sailed on this for MCC long ago), or due to high accessibility, allowing employers to draw talent from a wide area. If Mississauga wants office development in MCC, it is going to have to increase accessibility and that means better access to where growth is occurring. A hour-long trip to downtown Toronto isn't going to help (and dare I say, buses aren't likely to cut it either).
Back in the 1950s, Toronto planners decided that downtown Toronto needed to become more accessible from where the growth was occurring. They built the DVP, but they didn't say "now downtown Toronto has an expressway" and go home. They understood that served ONE market in relation to downtown (the northeast) and built and planned highways serving other markets to maintain the accessibility of downtown. When GO started it served two markets in relation to downtown, but it too needed to expand into other markets to ensure the continued accessibility of downtown. A BD extension to MCC serves ONE market (from the east), the one market where the least growth is occurring.
We need quality transit that understands the reality of the GTA of 2008.
As for the SCC extension, Danforth and Brimley is already a dense node and still has land for redevelopment. Lawrence has less redevelopment opportunity, but is also home to Canada's busiest hospital.
That's pretty difficult to work with.
unimaginative2
Senior Member
I couldn't agree with you more, cdl.
The tragedy is that we could have had it built twenty years ago if GO-ALRT hadn't been cancelled.
The tragedy is that we could have had it built twenty years ago if GO-ALRT hadn't been cancelled.