Fate of the SRT

[hkric88]

Ok, the last thing this line needs is to be downgraded to human-operated streetcars. I'm sorry, but that is exactly what 'Transit City' is shaping up to be, it's shaping-up to be Spadina with longer streetcars. The SRT is already packed beyond its own capacity. I often attribute the rush-hour experience to waiting for an amusement park ride, because that is exactly what it looks like. You have line-ups where the doors open, and you have to wait for a few trains before you can actually get on to one. The last thing we need on this line is a lower capacity, and much slower system. Potential operating speeds of these new TC vehicles bear no relevance. I ride two streetcars on my daily commute, and I can tell you, the operators often go much much slower than they have to. There is too much inconsistency in their operation, this is why ATO/ATC systems excel at efficiency. Closer possible headways mean nothing if the drivers keep their speeds below a swift jogging pace. Not to mention the quite athletic linear induction motors used by the SRT, and not by LRT vehicles. The LEAST we should be considering is an upgrade to Mark II, simply for the added capacity.

 

[Voltz]

No, the upgrade involves building a double track centre platform station at kennedy and extending each of the existing stations from 4 to at least 6 cars (or to 4 of the new longer cars).

Platform extensions by them selves are a 50% capacity increase, Going from a single track to a double track terminal will at least double the number of trains they can run. Combine those two improvements together and you will at least get a 150% capacity increase. Their is still room for even more capacity with even longer trains or shorter headway's.

But I don't want the SRT to be rebuilt, I Want to see it gone. But everyone should at least try and get their facts straight when arguing a point, including the guy who just posted above me.

 

[hkric88]

I would encourage you to please read before you write. You didn't seem to make a whole lot of sense, and the only reference I had of you refering to my post was your little spaz at the end about me getting my facts straight. Smarten-up buddy, we've got enough hip-shooters in this world.

I was referring to the LRT vehicles as being lower speed and lower capacity as compared to the Mark II cars, and when I said AT LEAST, you can read that as: subway is better, LRT is stupid.

I didn't come to this form to re-live kindergarten.

 

[Voltz]

I would encourage you to please read before you write. You didn't seem to make a whole lot of sense, and the only reference I had of you refering to my post was your little spaz at the end about me getting my facts straight. Smarten-up buddy, we've got enough hip-shooters in this world.

I was referring to the LRT vehicles as being lower speed and lower capacity as compared to the Mark II cars, and when I said AT LEAST, you can read that as: subway is better, LRT is stupid.

I didn't come to this form to re-live kindergarten.

My mistake, I was not referring to your post entirely, but to the person who mentioned that the refurbished SRT will not increase capacity significantly.

I would not be comparing any modern LRT line with the existing streetcars, simply because they will operating in a completely different environment and the vehicles will be all new.

 

[hkric88]

in that case, my apologies for my part in the misunderstanding

 

[Edward Skira]

If I recall correctly, the SRT would have to be shut down by 2015 anyway, they would have had to start planning for a subway 2 years ago for it to be ready in time.

Why does it have to take 9 years to extend the subway line?

 

[nfitz]

Well for one reason, a new subway line still requires a full blown EA process, so if you started now, it wouldn't be finished until the end 2011 or so.

And then presumably the Feds will take another 2 years to pony up their share ...

 

[Edward Skira]

Why do the feds have to pony up anything? Were they planning to pay for the SRT replacement with lrt or whatever?

 

[ShonTron]

Well for one reason, a new subway line still requires a full blown EA process, so if you started now, it wouldn't be finished until the end 2011 or so.

Er, no. Subways are not classified differently than other transit modes under the simplified transit EA process, but that's the kind of argument that I see from LRT ideologues. After all, much of Eglinton will be all-but-a-'subway'. The York U EA was prior to the new legislation. I believe the Yonge North will be subject to the streamlined EA.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

And even if the subway extension is done in 2016, so what? The SRT is full now but is such an awful service that most of that total ridership can be easily diverted temporarily. Midland and Brimley see no traffic and can handle Finch East-level frequencies of express buses that take people from STC to Kennedy, and even a pittance of improved GO service could take care of many more. The SRT vehicles aren't just going to spontaneously combust on Jan. 1, 2015, by the way.

 

[nfitz]

Er, no. Subways are not classified differently than other transit modes under the simplified transit EA process.

Are you sure? Perhaps it changed in the final version, but there were numerous documents around when it was being developed that said othewise. For example in the April 18, 2007 TTC report on the draft amendment it says that "this new Class EA process will apply to all municipal transit projects except for new or extended subway lines which will continue to follow the more-extensive Individual EA process".

... but that's the kind of argument that I see from LRT ideologues.

LRT ideologues? WTF? Why the personal attack?? It would be nice to discuss issues here, without the flaming. As a moderator, your behaviour should be better!! And I really don't understand the relevance given the criticism I've made of not proceeding with DCL faster, or not extending the Sheppard subway.

 

[nfitz]

Why do the feds have to pony up anything? Were they planning to pay for the SRT replacement with lrt or whatever?

The government of Ontario has asked the feds to pay for a portion of MoveOntario 2020. I'd think at somepoint in the future, they will suddenly commit money, and then we'll be sitting for another 2 years while they cross the i's and dot the t's. But I'm only theorising here ...

 

[kEiThZ]

The government of Ontario has asked the feds to pay for a portion of MoveOntario 2020. I'd think at somepoint in the future, they will suddenly commit money, and then we'll be sitting for another 2 years while they cross the i's and dot the t's. But I'm only theorising here ...

But the initial part of the MO2020 is being funded entirely by the province. I don't think the RT refurb/extension is in jeopardy if fed funding does not come through.

 

[kEiThZ]

No, the upgrade involves building a double track centre platform station at kennedy and extending each of the existing stations from 4 to at least 6 cars (or to 4 of the new longer cars).

Platform extensions by them selves are a 50% capacity increase, Going from a single track to a double track terminal will at least double the number of trains they can run. Combine those two improvements together and you will at least get a 150% capacity increase. Their is still room for even more capacity with even longer trains or shorter headway's.

I am still skeptical about the platform upgrades at Kennedy. Although it'll improve usability, I really doubt that it'll add a 100% capacity increase through improved headways. And I really don't believe the extra 2 cars, although a 50% increase in capacity will be enough to handle rush hour loads. The SRT is full going westbound after two stops (McCowan, STC) during rush hour. How full do you think it'll be once it is extended to Malvern (especially with Malvern becoming a local bus hub funneling riders down the SRT)? All the upgrades, might handle the projected ridership increase but will probably leave the SRT just as crowded as it is today in a few years after the refurbished lines open. Splitting the project up into a subway and LRT is really the only effective solution.

 

[afransen]

Given that the federal government has been projected to have a $2 billion deficit this year, $10 billion next, and then improving slightly for the next few years. Given that we're looking at a $30 billion shortfall federally for the next few years (high five Harper--things are going exactly according to plan), it doesn't look good for federal support for MoveOntario.