Fate of the SRT

[GTS]

I jumped onto this thread kind of late but here is my two bits. I recently moved here to Toronto from Vancouver with a short stop in a place with not so good transit, so I try to be actively involved in transit in my new home. I read on a thread on Steve Munro's website and they wanted to get rid of the RT and extend the BD subway to STC. Steve Munro's reply, with diagram showed the present subway alignment didn't make this proposal that easily done. His diagram showed the subway tracks pointing eastward underneath Eglinton, basically following Eglinton Ave. To extend it to STC the track would need a very tight curve north.

Personally being from Vancouver I like the RT. Glad they are replacing the Mark I cars for the roomier Mark II cars like Vancouver has. One thing I have always appreciated about Vancouver's system are the stations that have a shared center platform. When they upgrade the SRT they are planning on Kennedy to have a buried center platform where two RT's can be there ready to load up like the Kennedy Subway platform. When they do this upgrade I hope the modernize the Scarborough Town Center station as well. I think center platform will serve this station well because it is so heavily used even after it is extended to Malvern. Both north bound and south bound passengers can share escalators, stairs and elevators. The bus terminal at this station is already really well designed and doensn't need any upgrades.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

I read on a thread on Steve Munro's website and they wanted to get rid of the RT and extend the BD subway to STC. Steve Munro's reply, with diagram showed the present subway alignment didn't make this proposal that easily done. His diagram showed the subway tracks pointing eastward underneath Eglinton, basically following Eglinton Ave. To extend it to STC the track would need a very tight curve north.

Personally being from Vancouver I like the RT. Glad they are replacing the Mark I cars for the roomier Mark II cars like Vancouver has. One thing I have always appreciated about Vancouver's system are the stations that have a shared center platform. When they upgrade the SRT they are planning on Kennedy to have a buried center platform where two RT's can be there ready to load up like the Kennedy Subway platform. When they do this upgrade I hope the modernize the Scarborough Town Center station as well. I think center platform will serve this station well because it is so heavily used even after it is extended to Malvern. Both north bound and south bound passengers can share escalators, stairs and elevators. The bus terminal at this station is already really well designed and doensn't need any upgrades.

The track east of Kennedy station would not need a very tight curve north and any diagram suggesting a tight curve would be needed to reach the likely Brimley & Lawrence alignment is erroneous.

STC station actually has several design flaws, but we don't yet know the extent to which the whole of the station below the SRT platforms (including the bus terminal, escalators, etc.) might be rebuilt.

 

[Voltz]

^^^^^ I'm guessing he means if the subway where to be extended along the existing SRT route, an idea that was floated several years ago by a few city councillors when the future of the SRT first came up for discussion.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

^^^^^ I'm guessing he means if the subway where to be extended along the existing SRT route, an idea that was floated several years ago by a few city councillors when the future of the SRT first came up for discussion.

Yes, I know. That's why I said an alignment via Brimley & Lawrence (the only one the city has ever formally acknowledged, not that they actually serisouly studied a subway extension) wouldn't need a tight curve.

Running it in the SRT corridor would require backtracking via a reasonably tight curve...the tighter the curve, the longer you'd be able to run in the corridor. A better option using this alignment would be to simply rebuild Kennedy station - a perfectly reasonable and very desirable option when you consider the subway extension and the Eglinton Transfer City line could both benefit.

 

[nfitz]

Glad they are replacing the Mark I cars for the roomier Mark II cars like Vancouver has.

This seems to be out-of-date information though ... that was so 3-months ago. Seems the current thinking is to convert the RT to streetcar operation.

 

[unimaginative2]

No four-car trains for on-street ROWs are suggested. I talked about a two-car trains route that gets branched.

Well that won't come close to accommodating 10,000 people per hour. And if you're talking about two LRVs coupled together, that's longer than any transport truck and I don't think it would be permissible for on-street operation.

Or DRL. If it diverts 30-40% of riders at Pape, people at Broadview or Chester will fit easily.

I agree. A DRL would help a lot, and is a great complement to a completed BD, as well as an extended Yonge line.

But the cost of vehicles is only a portion of the whole extension cost. The tunnel will cost more anyway.

Of course you're right a tunnel will cost more, though nobody has shown exactly why a subway on the existing RT alignment is impossible. I'm highly dubious of claims that a tunnel for LRT would cost less than a subway tunnel, however, since the slightly smaller dimensions of the LRVs would be more than made up for by the clearance needed for overhead catenary.

 

[kEiThZ]

Why are street ROWs being discussed? Currently, the whole route for the SRT and the SRT extension is a grade separated ROW. So regardless of vehicle choice (LRT or ART) it would not be a street ROW.

That said, if the TTC remains absolutely ideologically opposed to a BD extension then I can certainly see the utility of using LRT over ART Mk II. And I still remain skeptical that they will really consider a subway extension....

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Why are street ROWs being discussed? Currently, the whole route for the SRT and the SRT extension is a grade separated ROW. So regardless of vehicle choice (LRT or ART) it would not be a street ROW.

That said, if the TTC remains absolutely ideologically opposed to a BD extension then I can certainly see the utility of using LRT over ART Mk II. And I still remain skeptical that they will really consider a subway extension....

ROWs in the middle of the road are being discussed (and mostly dismissed) because LRT's main merit, a "network" of branches of the line to Malvern, McCowan, Lawrence, etc., would be built with them.

 

[Rainforest]

Running it in the SRT corridor would require backtracking via a reasonably tight curve...the tighter the curve, the longer you'd be able to run in the corridor. A better option using this alignment would be to simply rebuild Kennedy station - a perfectly reasonable and very desirable option when you consider the subway extension and the Eglinton Transfer City line could both benefit.

Interesting option, perhaps it will be substantially cheaper than the tunnel, and in fact similar to the cost of the LRT conversion.

 

[kEiThZ]

Dear Mr....

Please note that the project team is currently re-visiting the option of converting the RT from its current vehicle technology to light rail technology. Such a conversion is being investigated as a means of providing more routing flexibility and in order to take advantage of possible benefits of vehicle technology which would be common to other Transit City lines. The next Open House has been delayed to allow completion of the current review of LRT
technology for the study corridor.

Information regarding work that is currently going on for the SRT project and all Transit City projects is available in the latest TTC report to the Commissioners.

Please see: http://www.ttc.ca/postings/gso-comr...ght_Rail_Plan_Status_Update__October_2008.pdf
See page 7 of the report.

Please note that the next Open House for the SRT project is not likely to take place until 2009. As soon as the next Open House for the SRT is scheduled, we will notify you.


best regards,
Public Consultation
City of Toronto
srt@toronto.ca

My response.....

Thank you for the update.

I sincerely hope your project office moves beyond the SRT vs LRT vehicle debate to long at the challenge of moving Scarborough residents from a broader perspective. Instead of studying conversion, why not evaluate replacing the current SRT with a Bloor-Danforth line extension from Kennedy station to Scarborough Town Centre. The proposed SRT extension to Malvern can then be accomplished with Transit City Light Rail instead. This creates a number of advantages

1) SRT can remain open during extension of the BD line to Scarborough Town Centre, particularly if the alternate corridor other then the current SRT corridor is used.
2) Fleet Commonality for both subway vehicles and LRT vehicles.
3) Alternate routings are possible along streets if the proposed SRT extension uses Transit City LRT instead. For example, significant number of residents along Corporate Drive and Consillium Place could be served by an LRT before it proceeded along Progress avenue to Centennial college and onwards to the Malvern area.
4) Extending the subway would significantly improve both travel time and comfort for the majority of Scarborough residents who are simply traveling from Scarborough Town Centre to Kennedy Station to embark on the Bloor-Danforth line. One less transfer and higher travel speeds along the corridor would vastly improve the transit experience to and from Scarborough.
5) Important points of interest that currently aren't serviced will gain service. Depending on the alignment chosen, it is likely that Scarborough General Hospital and Bendale Park could be served by a subway stop.
6) Increases capacity along the current SRT corridor. The current SRT is already crowded. Upgrading to ART Mk II might achieve a slight increase in capacity but the system will still be over crowded from day 1. The only appropriate solution is to replace the current SRT portion with a subway.

Most importantly, replacing the current RT with a subway and the proposed extension with LRT could probably be accomplished for about the same cost that the TTC proposes to refurbish and extend the SRT. At 5-6 km, the extension of the Bloor-Danforth line would not cost more than $1.5 billion ($250 million per km), and the 6km SRT extension could be built for $240 million (using Transit City cost estimates). At a generously overestimated total cost of $1.74 billion, the above proposal would far more effective at serving the residents of Scarborough, and the Malvern community in particular. And would save the TTC significant costs and hassle in its deployment. In sum, employing a combination of a heavy rail subway and Transit City light rail will achieve far more than a one-size fits all solution of an upgraded and extended SRT using solely ART Mk II or LRT vehicles.

For the sake of the multitudes of loyal transit riders in Scarborough, please make the right choice.

 

[kEiThZ]

More pressure needs to be applied on these folks to extend the BD line. They have budged from their initial stance of retaining the ART vehicles. Now is time to take them whole 9 yards and get them to see the utility of a subway to STC.

I hope all of you will inundate the SRT public consultation team with demands for a subway.... I also CC Giambrone on my emails....

 

[Voltz]

I have already made my point about what I would like to happen with the SRT, But just a few point about that letter,,,

If I recall correctly, the SRT would have to be shut down by 2015 anyway, they would have had to start planning for a subway 2 years ago for it to be ready in time. So since whatever mode gets picked would have some down time, it should not be a factor in deciding what should happen with the SRT

ALRT technology is capable of handling 20,000 - 30,000 per hour, (according to bombardier), there is no possible way that a refurbished SRT line would ever come close to being full. It is only full now because of single track terminals and a lack of vehicles.

If you are telling the SRT team stuff that they know is not true then it just discredits the rest of your points

 

[Dan416]

Point is, why should we keep this orphan technology when we can rationalize the fleet down to just subway and LRT, rather than subway, ALRT and LRT.

And of course the already mentioned points of faster travel times, and less transfers.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Also, the theoretical capacity as suggested by the manufacturer may be quite a bit off from reality when you combine the service the TTC actually ends up providing with how riders actually use it. Winter coats alone could eat up a not-insignificant chunk of theoretical capacity, and, unlike the Yonge line where there's fewer options, people may not squish themselves in like sardines just because the clown car can fit a few more clowns (and if even one person is left behind on the platform because they deem the vehicle too crowded, the "upgrade" would be a failure).

 

[kEiThZ]

If I recall correctly, the SRT would have to be shut down by 2015 anyway, they would have had to start planning for a subway 2 years ago for it to be ready in time. So since whatever mode gets picked would have some down time, it should not be a factor in deciding what should happen with the SRT

Better late than never.... The way I see it if they started planning now they might finish by 2017. In the meantime minor service upgrades could keep the SRT going. Also, the current parallel bus service, the new Sheppard LRT, etc can all take pressure off the SRT while BD extension is underway.

Just because they f----d the pooch on the planning does not mean that extending the BD line should be dropped as an option.

ALRT technology is capable of handling 20,000 - 30,000 per hour, (according to bombardier), there is no possible way that a refurbished SRT line would ever come close to being full. It is only full now because of single track terminals and a lack of vehicles.

I am sure you've taken a ride on the SRT so you know what I am talking about. That theoretical load is BS. The RT is always packed after STC West/Southbound and from Kennedy East/Northbound. If the capacity was so high, what explains this overcrowding all day long. Rush hour is a dog's breakfast at the main RT stations (STC, Kennedy).

The new vehicles will not increase capacity significantly. Whatever happens the vehicles will be packed from day one. And note, none of their plans include adding a second track or anything else to improve traffic flow. They are simply going to buy bigger vehicles and re-align Kennedy. That's the upgrade. Most of the money is going towards extending the RT not upgrading it. That's why I suggested the project be broken up into 2 components, RT replacement (BD line) and RT extension (with LRT instead).

If you are telling the SRT team stuff that they know is not true then it just discredits the rest of your points

If me, someone who is not a transit planner, can figure out the obvious, they must know these viewpoints too. It's telling that they never respond to these viewpoints at open houses or on email. If they know something I don't why not repudiate my line of thinking?