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Fate of the SRT

What do you believe should be done about the SRT?


  • Total voters
    190
I looked at the modelling backgrounder and it's disappointingly shallow. They simply wave their hands around saying they took existing traffic patterns and "social values"(!) into account and then dump tables of numbers generated from one or more runs of some apparently secret MTO simulator based on undisclosed assumptions and data.

The level of detail released may be appropriate for the general public, but that doesn't mean that something for a more technologically literate audience shouldn't be released as well. Of course, that's naively assuming a relatively apolitical and open process.
 
It's better than nothing, but there are certainly some highly dubious assumptions in that model. The 407 busway, for example, is modeled based on an average speed of 25-30 km/h. That's identical to the modeled speed of, for example, the Transit City streetcar lines. In fact, it's the same modeled speed as every transit route that's not a subway or regional rail. The model is based on the assumption that the average speed of a bus that is on an expressway with stops every 2 km would be the same as a streetcar on an urban street, stopping at traffic lights, with stations every 500m. The same modeled speed is used for the Mississauga Transitway. That's probably slower than existing bus routes on local streets out in Mississauga, let alone an express bus along a highway. I mean, how can somebody not notice that? And how can the model make any sense with those kinds of errors?
 
Yes, it's all just some big conspiracy to prevent as many subway lines as possible, isn't it?

I wouldn't say that the numbers for the SRT corridor could be that far off, considering that vastly improved go service will be brought in on the stouffville and crosstown go lines. But of course the model is not perfect, and their are many errors that I have noticed.

and what is with this 'we need to make subway lines need to live up their potential' idea? Transit infrastructure exists to serve riders, not the other way around.
 
I would not say that I'm more persistent than him

You, or anyone going to try to attack my opinion using facts and numbers, rather than just speculation?

When you can't attack the argument attack the writer, Right? I am not some kind of LRT lover.
 
Go back through the dozens of pages of this thread and many others. You'll see a vast number of facts. We've made the point, repeatedly, that the cost of extending the subway to Scarborough Centre is comparable to the amount the city has already planned to spend on a vastly inferior plan that benefits far fewer people. We have shown that virtually every RT rider would enjoy significant time and reliability savings through extending the subway and eliminating the transfer at Kennedy while only a small fraction would enjoy any improvement in the quality of their transit from an extension. We have shown how studies that claim identical ridership for lines regardless of mode, travel time, or number of transfers are completely preposterous. I suggest you look the threads over over, and if you bring up something new in response, I'll be happy to answer in due course.
 
But of course the model is not perfect, and their are many errors that I have noticed.

My point is that we don't really know what the model is! We know the structure of the network and their questionable speed assumptions for each technology, but that's about it. Nothing about the simulator, their methodology, included/neglected model parameters, statistical techniques, route transfer behaviour, or even how alternative networks compare.
 
Anth:

Those questions do have answers, but they are a bit beyond what I can explain. If you would like to know more about the model, I encourage you to contact Jacquie Menezes, Senior Associate, Public Affairs and Media
jacquie.menezes[at]metrolinx.com. She will be able to point you in the direction of in depth answers.
 
Go back through the dozens of pages of this thread and many others. You'll see a vast number of facts. We've made the point, repeatedly, that the cost of extending the subway to Scarborough Centre is comparable to the amount the city has already planned to spend on a vastly inferior plan that benefits far fewer people. We have shown that virtually every RT rider would enjoy significant time and reliability savings through extending the subway and eliminating the transfer at Kennedy while only a small fraction would enjoy any improvement in the quality of their transit from an extension. We have shown how studies that claim identical ridership for lines regardless of mode, travel time, or number of transfers are completely preposterous. I suggest you look the threads over over, and if you bring up something new in response, I'll be happy to answer in due course.

Actually, the subway extension would be a full half billion dollars cheaper than what they're proposing to spend on the RT, or a full $300M cheaper should they choose an alignment that doesn't go through Brimley & Lawrence.

Depending on the alignment, there may be a few hundred people that would have to take buses to get to the subway extension (mostly around Lawrence East station) but they'd gain all the time back because A) the Midland bus is a sleeper hit that is fast and reliable and B) they'd have a transfer shaved off. However, since the TTC loves catering to tiny niche ridership groups while ignoring the needs of the masses and of the city, forcing 200 people to take a 5 minute bus ride outweighs the travel improvements that tens of thousands would have gained from a subway extension.

edit - oh, yeah, B) refers to park'n'riders and those arriving via the Midland/Ellesmere/Lawrence buses, 100% of whom could either easily drive a km to another station or would be absolutely unaffected.
 
Go back through the dozens of pages of this thread and many others. You'll see a vast number of facts. We've made the point, repeatedly, that the cost of extending the subway to Scarborough Centre is comparable to the amount the city has already planned to spend on a vastly inferior plan that benefits far fewer people. We have shown that virtually every RT rider would enjoy significant time and reliability savings through extending the subway and eliminating the transfer at Kennedy while only a small fraction would enjoy any improvement in the quality of their transit from an extension. We have shown how studies that claim identical ridership for lines regardless of mode, travel time, or number of transfers are completely preposterous. I suggest you look the threads over over, and if you bring up something new in response, I'll be happy to answer in due course.

Of course a subway extension would save time over that segment of a trip, but my issue is the total travel time is what matters to riders. With a subway extension most riders would have to take a slow bus to the subway and transfer there. That is definitely better than the current situation and I would prefer the subway extension over retaining the SRT.

But with a LRT network (the key word being network), most riders will be able to board a LRT vehicle and take it straight to Kennedy, with much of that trip being over a fully protected right of way. If someone wants go to the subway then that is still just one transfer, if someone want to go to a point along eglinton then it might be possible to stay on that same vehicle.

Of course the trip segment from from STC to kennedy would be shorter with a subway vs LRT, but what is the difference in total trip time for most riders? For most riders (from central and northern scarborough, those who currently ride the SRT) I would argue that it is about equal or less with LRT.

I agree that retaining the SRT would have been more expensive and less desirable than a subway. But with a LRT option it can be significantly cheaper than SRT, as the extension (beyond STC) would not require full grade separation and elaborate stations. And it would allow for more routing options that are shared with other lines, hence the term network.

I also don't believe ridership will jump significantly on the SRT corridor, whatever the mode, as there will be two vastly improved Go lines running through the area, and they will both provide a much more desirable choice for riders than a subway extension.

However that is just my opinion, does not mean that I am right, but I believe that I have backed it up with facts.
 
Of course a subway extension would save time over that segment of a trip, but my issue is the total travel time is what matters to riders. With a subway extension most riders would have to take a slow bus to the subway and transfer there. That is definitely better than the current situation and I would prefer the subway extension over retaining the SRT.

But with a LRT network (the key word being network), most riders will be able to board a LRT vehicle and take it straight to Kennedy, with much of that trip being over a fully protected right of way. If someone wants go to the subway then that is still just one transfer, if someone want to go to a point along eglinton then it might be possible to stay on that same vehicle.

Of course the trip segment from from STC to kennedy would be shorter with a subway vs LRT, but what is the difference in total trip time for most riders? For most riders (from central and northern scarborough, those who currently ride the SRT) I would argue that it is about equal or less with LRT.

I agree that retaining the SRT would have been more expensive and less desirable than a subway. But with a LRT option it can be significantly cheaper than SRT, as the extension (beyond STC) would not require full grade separation and elaborate stations. And it would allow for more routing options that are shared with other lines, hence the term network.

I also don't believe ridership will jump significantly on the SRT corridor, whatever the mode, as there will be two vastly improved Go lines running through the area, and they will both provide a much more desirable choice for riders than a subway extension.

However that is just my opinion, does not mean that I am right, but I believe that I have backed it up with facts.

That plan simply won't save people more time than a subway extension. If you try running branches of an SRT-replacing LRT line up McCowan, along Lawrence, to Malvern, along Ellesmere, etc., then you'll be severely limiting the frequency on the feeder branches, and then you'll eat up any potential travel time savings gained by ROWs (and I'm being quite generous by assuming the city would have any intention of running the LRT line properly). And, yes, you'd need to run at least 4 LRT lines off the main RT to capture the SRT ridership base, and even then you won't capture them all.

Your premise that people will still have to take slow buses to get to the subway is false. Not only is it based on the erroneous belief that existing buses can't be improved (they can, and at an undeniably small cost), some of the bus routes feeding Kennedy station, or feeding it via the RT, are not at all slow (such as 57, 21), or are only slow because they wander around Scarborough like a drunken fool (such as 133). Routes like McCowan or Lawrence East could make good LRT lines but they could also get greatly improved bus service that'll cost next to nothing and could be implemented in a matter of months.

Keep in mind that a network of LRT lines will cost billions of dollars, *far* more than what a subway extension plus some Rocket routes will cost. You're shooting yourself right in the foot by suggesting GO lines will consume much of the ridership...if they do, there won't be enough left to justify a series billion dollar LRT lines, either.
 
Rocket busses are not a bad idea, and the TTC should consider operating more of them. But their cost is not next to nothing, they still have to buy the buses (and replace them sooner, and use more for a given demand level) and pay to operate them, and they will still get caught in traffic like any other bus, weather or not the word rocket is on them. And its not like the TTC has a good track record of managing bus lines either.

I say a network of lrt lines because they are planning to build them anyways, their frequency would not be limited by interlining them with the srt because not all of their vehicles would be funneled down that corridor, people do go to places other than the subway on transit.

My main objection to a subway is that it costs a lot of money for the area that it serves, if there is enough people on one then its not a problem. But their is nothing to even suggest that one would be needed, you can call low ridership projections a conspiracy all you want, but it doesn't change what is. The money saved from not building a subway can be used to start a transit line on another street, such as Lawrence for example.
 
Rocket busses are not a bad idea, and the TTC should consider operating more of them. But their cost is not next to nothing, they still have to buy the buses (and replace them sooner, and use more for a given demand level) and pay to operate them, and they will still get caught in traffic like any other bus, weather or not the word rocket is on them. And its not like the TTC has a good track record of managing bus lines either.

I say a network of lrt lines because they are planning to build them anyways, their frequency would not be limited by interlining them with the srt because not all of their vehicles would be funneled down that corridor, people do go to places other than the subway on transit.

My main objection to a subway is that it costs a lot of money for the area that it serves, if there is enough people on one then its not a problem. But their is nothing to even suggest that one would be needed, you can call low ridership projections a conspiracy all you want, but it doesn't change what is. The money saved from not building a subway can be used to start a transit line on another street, such as Lawrence for example.

Rocket buses are practically free compared to LRT lines, which require hundreds of millions, if not billions, of dollars of investment before a single streetcar can ply a route. Rocket buses can be had simply by shifting some existing regular buses to Rocket service...you don't even need to buy more buses or hire more drivers, as they can increase capacity and decrease travel time using the same number of vehicles. This is important to note because you insist these LRT lines are useful for random local service, which means high turnover along a route and the ability to serve more people with fewer vehicles. The TTC has a better track record with buses than with streetcars - try riding some of the many suburban bus routes that function well and you'll see that.

They are not going to build a network of LRT lines along streets that feed the SRT...there are no lines proposed for McCowan, Brimley, Midland, Lawrence, Ellesmere, Markham, etc. There may be an extension from STC to Malvern, but riders from that direction only supply a fraction of the SRT's total ridership, and the Morningside line would be a long trip to the subway that clearly would not be an improvement over a subway + Rocket bus combination. So, if it's not serving the SRT ridership base, and it would require transfers to get to Kennedy station, how exactly does the network you mention replace the SRT better than a [cheaper] subway extension would? LRT also does absolutely nothing for the STC area itself, which, if not already the biggest generator of SRT trips, will be the biggest generator once it's fully developed.

The area that a subway extension to STC serves is all of Scarborough north of Eglinton and east of Kennedy, as well as parts of Markham, a good 400,000 people. It's funny how you repeatedly cite subway technology as too expensive because ridership on the extension may not reach the theoretical capacity of the subway trains (if it did, how would someone at Warden get on?), yet you do not apply this same criteria to a series of LRT lines that may be running half empty but will cost, cumulatively, far beyond what the subway extension would, only they'll have smaller catchment areas, serve fewer people, not remove transfers, not reduce travel times as much as a subway extension, etc. The money saved by not building some of these LRT lines could build a subway extension and bring fantastic bus service to *every* rider in Scarborough, with money left over.
 
I agree that retaining the SRT would have been more expensive and less desirable than a subway. But with a LRT option it can be significantly cheaper than SRT, as the extension (beyond STC) would not require full grade separation and elaborate stations. And it would allow for more routing options that are shared with other lines, hence the term network.

While I am a bit skeptical about a Sheppard subway extension, when it comes to extending the BD line to STC, that's a no-brainer. Most folks are heading to Kennedy anyway and will benefit from one less transfer and higher corridor speeds with a subway.

The network argument also lacks punch because there's no special LRT extension to Kennedy being planned.

The main problem here is the idiotic idea to combine the refurbishment with the extension. The refurbishment needs to be a replacement by extending the BD line. And the extension needs to be TC style LRT. Even as a Malvernite I'd argue that SRT is overkill for the transportation needs of NE Scarborough.
 
It's not just that they're headed to Kennedy, they're headed to the subway to go beyond Kennedy. A one-seat ride from STC to Kennedy or from Malvern to Kennedy or wherever to Kennedy is fantastically less important than a one-seat ride from anywhere in Scarborough to STC and from STC to downtown. No matter what the technology or how much money is spent, STC is the only transfer point that makes sense...it's the only transfer point that doesn't punish one segment of riders so that another segment can have a one-seat ride to somewhere they go only in very, very tiny numbers. Extending the Danforth line to STC is the only option that benefits all riders and punishes no riders.
 

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