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Fate of the SRT

What do you believe should be done about the SRT?


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jswag

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Metrolinx are just only following the individual plans of each system, even though it is supposed to be the regional planning body. Metrolinx are just tools.

Metrolinx is bound by law to conform to municipalities' plans. In reality it should be the other way around, but you know how governments react when their existing powers are threatened. McGuinty et al just didn't have the courage to write into the law regional powers for Metrolinx.
 

RedRocket191

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Metrolinx is bound by law to conform to municipalities' plans. In reality it should be the other way around, but you know how governments react when their existing powers are threatened. McGuinty et al just didn't have the courage to write into the law regional powers for Metrolinx.

Not quite. Metrolinx is not bound by law to conform to other municipalities plans. Metrolinx's only has to conform to the Places to Grow Act. While they didn't have to respect the official plans of the municipalities, what is gained by going against them?

In many cases in the RTP simply retooling ideas proposed by municipal planners created a good foundation for the plan. I.E. merging Brampton's Accelereide and Mississauga's Hurontario corridor together to address a regional issue of travel on the corridor. With 20 years worth of studies on these issues collecting dust, should we dust them off and update them, or should we study them all over again and probably end up at the same conclusion anyway?

Sometimes people at Nathan Phillips Square or York Region HQ come up with good ideas and it's a ridiculous assertion to call Metrolinx tools for recognizing and expanding on these good ideas.
 

Anth

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Not quite. Metrolinx is not bound by law to conform to other municipalities plans. Metrolinx's only has to conform to the Places to Grow Act. While they didn't have to respect the official plans of the municipalities, what is gained by going against them?

A more rational regional transit network.

Sometimes people at Nathan Phillips Square or York Region HQ come up with good ideas and it's a ridiculous assertion to call Metrolinx tools for recognizing and expanding on these good ideas.

Unfortunately, not all of them are good and we shouldn't blindly rubber stamp those that aren't considering the staggering resources involved and the potential consequences.
 

RedRocket191

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A more rational regional transit network.



Unfortunately, not all of them are good and we shouldn't blindly rubber stamp those that aren't considering the staggering resources involved and the potential consequences.

Some ideas are better than others - there is no doubt, and your opinion will probably be based on where you live, work or travel.

I don't think the plan gives a blanket rubber stamp to the existing proposals either. The plan identifies needs, but for the most part doesn't specify alignments or technologies, and most of the concerns I've been hearing from people are about that in particular.

I'm here to engage the public on this plan, so if you would like to cite some examples of where you think the missteps are, I will gladly address those issues. It's quite possible that these missteps are things that are better addressed in the individual EA & Benefits Case analysis for the lines instead of in the high level guiding principles that is the RTP.
 

kEiThZ

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If LRT replaced SRT, there would be a much greater chance at some point in the future, that the BD line was extended directly to STC, than if the SRT was rehabbed and extended to Malvern and/or down Eglinton.

Exactly. That's why I don't mind LRT for now if it leads to a BD line later. Though, I still think they should just start on a BD extension now and avoid refurbishment/LRT downgrade costs.

It would also create opportunities for other quite economical SRT/LRT extensions, to Agincourt, Kingston Road, etc.

Exactly again. If the proposed SRT extension used LRT technology than it would be well integrated with Transit City so that for example the Scarborough-Malvern LRT could loop down Sheppard to STC - connecting STC with U of T Scarborough. We could also have future Sheppard East LRTs short turn towards STC at Progress. A LRT out of STC could also be looped around Consilium, etc. There are many, many possibilities.
 

scarberiankhatru

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For every mistake Metrolinx might fix or prevent, they might cause a whole new one, like keeping and extending the SRT and folding Eglinton into these plans. I can see why some people would think running the RT along Eglinton is a stroke of genius, but it'll have all the benefits of a real stroke as long as there are alternatives that are both cheaper and better. One problem with Metrolinx is that it has in no way discouraged lobbying for pet projects...some pet projects are fantastic, though, so at least we'll get lots of good with the bad.
 

Anth

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Some ideas are better than others - there is no doubt, and your opinion will probably be based on where you live, work or travel.

No one is completely objective, of course, but technical projects are far from subjective and their merits can be evaluated and debated rationally by technical people.

It's quite possible that these missteps are things that are better addressed in the individual EA & Benefits Case analysis for the lines instead of in the high level guiding principles that is the RTP.

Fair enough, though the guiding principles we've seen so far don't lend themselves to optimism. The recent case analysis updates we saw are cause for some relief, but we'll have to wait and see.
 

unimaginative2

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I just can't understand why they keep ignoring the obvious solution: finish the BD subway to Scarborough Centre, and then build LRT north to Malvern. It would cost the same as the existing RT refurbishment and extension by the TTC's own figures, and would dramatically improve the transit service to everybody in Scarborough. Is the allergy to subways so severe at the TTC?
 

scarberiankhatru

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According to the TTC's own figures, it would actually be cheaper. STC is the perfect place to branch streetcars or buses out from...McCowan, Malvern, Ellesmere, wherever.
 

W. K. Lis

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The Scarborough RT was supposed to have been originally to use CLRV's running as multi-unit trains on their right-of-way. However, the government of the day forced the TTC to use ICTS instead.
Now the TTC wants to replace the ICTS with LRV's, but will they be Low-Floor LRV's, so that the same LFLRV's from the Transit City lines can be used on the RT (in multi-unit trains of course)?
 

RedRocket191

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The Scarborough RT was supposed to have been originally to use CLRV's running as multi-unit trains on their right-of-way. However, the government of the day forced the TTC to use ICTS instead.
Now the TTC wants to replace the ICTS with LRV's, but will they be Low-Floor LRV's, so that the same LFLRV's from the Transit City lines can be used on the RT (in multi-unit trains of course)?

That is what recent news posted by DavidH suggests, yes.

Everything is really in flux now. We'll know more when the work on Eglinton and the amendments to the TTC's EA move forward.
 

Voltz

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Metrolinx seems to want a continuous route from Pearson, along eglinton to STC/Malvern. I can't seem to figure out the reasoning behind it, but if that is what we are going to get then LRT is definitely the way to go. Much cheaper and more flexible than ALRT
 

Rainforest

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I just can't understand why they keep ignoring the obvious solution: finish the BD subway to Scarborough Centre, and then build LRT north to Malvern. It would cost the same as the existing RT refurbishment and extension by the TTC's own figures, and would dramatically improve the transit service to everybody in Scarborough. Is the allergy to subways so severe at the TTC?

The all-LRT solution will be the cheapest of the three (all-LRT, subway + LRT, or all-ICTS). The conversion of SRT to LRT will cost about 200 M more than the upgrade of SRT (according to the Dr. Soberman's report), but a much greater saving will be reached east of STC.

The subway (to STC) + LRT solution will cost more than the all-LRT one, as the new tunnel to STC has to be constructed instead of reusing the existing guideway. Nevertheless, one can argue that it might be more effective on the cost - benefit basis, due to extra development at the new subway stations, elimination of a transfer for many trips, and the release of the guideway land strip to build additional Stouffville GO tracks.

The all-ICTS solution is probably the worst of the three: most expensive, most imbalanced (in terms of the capacity-to-ridership rations south and east of STC), and least conductive to interlining.
 

drum118

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Based on the comments at TTC meeting as well Metrolinx meeting, SRT is dead and LRT's will replace it. We will know in January when the business case is presented to Metrolinx.

One only hope LRT is the way since it has the best business case now.
 

Coruscanti Cognoscente

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Personally I'd rather the SRT be replaced with LRT than be refurbished. At the same time, I'd rather the Danforth line be extended to STC, and go with LRT from there.

Of course, I'd also rather Eglinton be subway. But I think the case for extending the subway to STC is stronger than for subway along Eglinton.

I think extending Sheppard to STC is also more important than Eglinton being subway.

Honestly, once Scarborough gets Sheppard subway to STC and B-D subway to STC, that's all the subway they'll ever need in my opinion.
 

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