Family Sized Condos

[LordWanker]

I actually enjoy the fact there are not a lot of kids in downtown Toronto. For me the whole point of living here is to be among other couples and singles, not among strollers and diapers and crying kids...

I would also make sure not to live next to or beneath a large unit that is likely to attract a family. I don’t want to hear constant crying form babies or wake up at 7 on a weekend because the toddler in the unit above decided to run around. Neighbors are unpredictable enough as it is, so if I can reasonably expect a noisy neighbor, I would make sure to avoid that unit. Also family-friendly amenities in a condo will be paid for by all the residents, and I would rather pay for a gym and a media room than kid stuff.

I totally understand parents that want to live close to the action, but I don’t see what benefits they bring to the area to justify government interference.

How is that any different if you get a noisy neighbour who moves in after you're established? Then again after seeing how some of these 'adults" behave, they are not much different from the toddlers.

Personally, I don't see the downside to having mostly singles, couples and empty nesters. Don't kids add to the fiscal burden of providing city services?

Yes but so do you in living there.

 

[Pfloyd]

I think the issue of condo fees is something that is a ticking time bomb. They keep going up and up, and large condos or older buildings are approaching $700-$1000 a month fees just for maintenance. With that, the cost of condos becomes very unaffordable, and most people opt to live in a house or a freehold town home.

I think part of the problem is that many new condos have too many amenities and use inefficient materials in construction. There needs to be more back to basics buildings without security, without pools, and just have a party room, gym and other a low cost amenities. Low maintenance buildings can help make it more affordable for families to live downtown.

Yes, unfortunately the high condo fees are a major problem for the large size units. I was recently looking in MLS for units above 1,500 sq ft, and the fees were mostly +/- $1,000 depending on the size, building age, amenities, etc. There were a few high end units for over $ 1 million with fees in the $1,600 + range.

 

[TOareaFan]

Personally, I don't see the downside to having mostly singles, couples and empty nesters. Don't kids add to the fiscal burden of providing city services?

I think they do if you think you have to build fresh to provide those services......I think what Mr V is saying is that we have invested in those services already (using schools as an example) and if we have no kids downtown then we will be faced with empty infrastructure in one part of the city (downtown) while we are facing shortages in others (inner burbs, I guess)...so, the theory goes, you encourage (mandate?) more kid friendly units, families flock downtown and you use the schools you have instead of building more in other places.

 

[Automation Gallery]

....I think what Mr V is saying is that we have invested in those services already (using schools as an example) and if we have no kids downtown then we will be faced with empty infrastructure in one part of the city (downtown) while we are facing shortages in others (inner burbs, I guess

Who are they kidding.... What new schools downtown have they really invested in.

 

[TOareaFan]

Who are they kidding.... What new schools downtown have they really invested in.

I don't think they are saying new they are saying existing....and I think that is their point...I don't agree with the notion of the mandated 10% but I think I understand what they are trying to say/do.

 

[taal]

I love it,

On CP24:

"Adam Vaughn warns downtown may become child free without family size units!"

No more children ! Ban them all !

Sorry, couldn't stop laughing when I read that.

Anyway, this all good and all but to be frank, if there was a market for it, they would make them ... it's pretty silly to regulate it.

Now, if Mr. Adam was proposing reducing the cost of larger units downtown ... that's another story.

I'm sorry Adam, closing the clubs and stopping your feat down and demanding more large units are built just won't cut it

 

[urbandreamer]

Toronto doesn't need family-sized condos. It needs more family-sized rental units constructed downtown, whether from infill units above back alley garages, or midrises lining the main drags. The High Park area is a successful family-friendly rental community. My building has many 2 bedroom units filled with happy families...2 kids per average unit it seems. Rent is much less than condo fees+mortgage. Even new rentals surely are more competitively priced than condos?

 

[adma]

Personally, I don't see the downside to having mostly singles, couples and empty nesters. Don't kids add to the fiscal burden of providing city services?

Maybe it's also the *kinds* of "families" we're dealing with, i.e. we're not necessarily dealing with Mormon-scale traditionalist multi-kidders here...

 

[TOareaFan]

Toronto doesn't need family-sized condos. It needs more family-sized rental units constructed downtown, whether from infill units above back alley garages, or midrises lining the main drags. The High Park area is a successful family-friendly rental community. My building has many 2 bedroom units filled with happy families...2 kids per average unit it seems. Rent is much less than condo fees+mortgage. Even new rentals surely are more competitively priced than condos?

True statements....unfortunately they are part of the problem.....lower rents and similar construction costs leads to bad economics for anyone to build.

 

[kEiThZ]

True statements....unfortunately they are part of the problem.....lower rents and similar construction costs leads to bad economics for anyone to build.

Just waiy for the bubble to burst. The markets will do what mandates can't.

 

[KA1]

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/27/realestate/27cov.html?hpw

Link to an article in The New York Times about 3/4 bedroom apartments, for families, a rage in New York City

 

[cdr108]

Yes, unfortunately the high condo fees are a major problem for the large size units. I was recently looking in MLS for units above 1,500 sq ft, and the fees were mostly +/- $1,000 depending on the size, building age, amenities, etc. There were a few high end units for over $ 1 million with fees in the $1,600 + range.

well if TO wants to compare itself to other cities regarding RE prices, why not compare our maintenance fees too.

WE'RE CHEAP COMPARED TO OTHER INTERNATIONAL CITIES !
MAINTENANCE FEES ALWAYS RISE !

 

[Johnzz]

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/27/realestate/27cov.html?hpw

Link to an article in The New York Times about 3/4 bedroom apartments, for families, a rage in New York City

Nice find KA1.

Toronto's probably 15-20 years behind New York's move to more family sized apartments (which began around mid 90's). Two variables will help "speed up" this process:

(1) A sustained increase in crude (above $150/barrel) will further narrow the total cost difference between city centre vs suburbs.

(2) Family incomes in Toronto play catch up with current real estate prices. At the moment, most families are priced out of these family size units, but conditions could change if home prices remain stable over next 5 years while incomes grind higher.

Also, as seen in Manhattan, once families arrive, family amenities start popping up (i.e. quality schools, day care, etc...), which cause more families to arrive, which cause more family amenities, which cause more families to arrive…

My own favourite attribute to city centre living is time. Less time commuting equals more time to live!

 

[interested]

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/27/realestate/27cov.html?hpw

Link to an article in The New York Times about 3/4 bedroom apartments, for families, a rage in New York City

Ka,
I believe this is not acheiving what Adam Vaughn is seeking for family condos in the core at prices which people can afford.

this is NYC where the uber wealthy or people with inflated incomes are looking to buy at $3 million with $3000/month condo fees and nannies and private schools??

I don't believe that except for a limited group of wealthy higher eschalon bankers, lawyers, and perhaps CA partners of major firms, entrepreneurs, this provides for family size apartments/condos in the core.

Remember, in the US mortgage interest payments are tax deductable, highest tax brackets kick in at over $250K I believe vs. around $110K in Canada, (the taxes are lowest in the US in the industrialized world) and you have some aggressive salaries being paid in NYC Manhattan which far exceed Canadian "norms".

I cannot see prices anywhere near approaching this here. I remember reading that Goldman Sachs was paying an average of $600K/employee. Granted some are lower support staff but this gives an idea to the absurb imbalance leading to a select few being able to offer inordinate amounts for limited Manhattan real estate.

Toronto has more room to expand and is nowhere as near built up as is NYC.

 

[interested]

Nice find KA1.

Toronto's probably 15-20 years behind New York's move to more family sized apartments (which began around mid 90's). Two variables will help "speed up" this process:

(1) A sustained increase in crude (above $150/barrel) will further narrow the total cost difference between city centre vs suburbs.

(2) Family incomes in Toronto play catch up with current real estate prices. At the moment, most families are priced out of these family size units, but conditions could change if home prices remain stable over next 5 years while incomes grind higher.

Also, as seen in Manhattan, once families arrive, family amenities start popping up (i.e. quality schools, day care, etc...), which cause more families to arrive, which cause more family amenities, which cause more families to arrive…

My own favourite attribute to city centre living is time. Less time commuting equals more time to live!

Regarding your points Johnzz:

1) Oil: I don't know if oil will hit $150/barrel sustained. You may be right but in my experience just when something seems to be headed in a direction, something else happens to derail it. At $150, do not other fuels, battery technology and nat. gas become more desirable and the incentive to innovate to decrease dependence on gas/oil.

2) Incomes: Family incomes in Ontario I believe though I may be wrong have only increased about 1-2%/year over the past decade. they may suddenly increase that rate but barring a huge productivity improvement in Canada, or massive commodity inflation, shift of the world to Canada as a new banking haven, I don't see huge increases in incomes to justify the skyrocketing prices. In fact, I would argue that there needs to be a period of consolidation over the next 3-4 years just to justify todays prices.

3): I agree if the first 2 come to pass, the amenities will follow.

I do understand the enjoyment of time. I can say as one individual who has lived in the suburbs for 30 years I find the city just too busy to contemplate returning full time. This does not mean I don't enjoy the activity, night life but I prefer to visit a day or 2 to get this/ week/month. Of course, I understand that for those working in the city, the time factor is not comparable. Alot of us in the suburbs find it more peaceful and as one ages, one prefers a somewhat more quiet life (at least compared to ones 20's and 30's)