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Family Sized Condos

Any square footage advertised includes hallways, closets, laundry room, and stairs (if multi-level). Anything finished is included, not including balconies and terraces, but could include sunrooms as part of the square footgage.

Newer condos do seem to be smaller. Sometimes the finishes increase the price. Granite countertops, stainless steel appliances, top-of-the-line cabinets, all increase the price.
 
The issue of family-sized condos has been raised in several places this week. On the weekend, the Star had a story about a fight over a mid-rise project in the west end and today CBC radio's The Current did a long segment on how the new mortgage rules will afect the market and, in turn, the demand for condos. There was talk of the "Manhattanization of Toronto."

I think it's inevitable. But first a beef about posters' definitions of what is downtown. Riverdale and Leslieville are just as cosmopolitan -- if not more so -- than the Annex and Yonge/Eg.

So let's look at Riverdale, say. They're having bidding wars over cr@ppy semis, driving prices well over $800K for three bedrooms and some stainless appliances. It's insane.

Now obviously some people want the cachet of those older Victorian homes, although most were quite working class when they were first built. But I will bet anything some people just want to be as close to the city as possible, with access to the parks and schools and dining and subway and shopping (really you can walk anywhere here) and no commute.

At $800K+ the interest must be crushing. The taxes, the insurance and, because these are older homes, the upkeep is non-stop. Never mind the shoveling, raking, shlepping of blue bins to the curb, all the day-to-day burdens of single family home-owning.

Having lived in this neighbourhood since 1985, I can tell you that there is a LARGE percentage of people who would be just as happy in larger condos in the area. Empty nesters who just love it here but want room for their kids/grandkids to visit. Young families who just can't be bothered with the annual crush at the garden centres. Those who enjoy not only the access to culture all over town but love events like Taste of the Danforth, the Beaches Jazz Fest etc.

I got lucky. I sold my home in February for a tidy profit and bought a 3 bed, 2 bath condo with all the amenities (gym, pool, locker, security, etc.) very close to my old house. I consider myself very lucky. My maintenance fees for 1200 sf are about $745 -- heat, hydro, water tax, and cable (with 2 free digital boxes) included.

I have not looked back.

I am quite confident that I could have raised my son here no problem. I come from Montreal where many many people rent because so many units were built in the early part of the 20th century to accommodate very large families. It's no big deal to me, although I grew up in detached houses in central locations. I fail to understand this ridiculous idea that a back yard, two cars, constant trips to fuel up, commuting and constant chauffeuring the kids everywhere constitutes quality of life.

My maintenance fees may seem high but, looking back on what i used to spend on the house, are a bargain.

I think that developers are being very short-sighted in not finding a way to serve this market.

P.S. Granny gets it.
 
...

So let's look at Riverdale, say. They're having bidding wars over cr@ppy semis, driving prices well over $800K for three bedrooms and some stainless appliances. It's insane.
...

I got lucky. I sold my home in February for a tidy profit and bought a 3 bed, 2 bath condo with all the amenities (gym, pool, locker, security, etc.) very close to my old house. I consider myself very lucky. My maintenance fees for 1200 sf are about $745 -- heat, hydro, water tax, and cable (with 2 free digital boxes) included.
...

My maintenance fees may seem high but, looking back on what i used to spend on the house, are a bargain.

if your maintenance fees are truly all inclusive as you said for heat, hydro, water, cable AND property taxes for $745 for 1,200 sq ft (which is about the size of a semi in your area), you're getting a good deal.

property taxes on $800K semi runs about $325+/m, heat and hydro at least $250/m (depending on how well insulated the house is and usuage), water/solid waste mgmt at least $100/m and cable with 2 digital boxes at least $100/m.
 
No, not property taxes, which are about $200/mo compared with $300+ in the house. But the insurance is much cheaper, I no longer pay for alarm monitoring, termite inspection and insurance, windows and eaves cleaning, and the list goes on
 
The Deputy Mayor Knows Best!

Downtown not the place to raise kids, says Toronto Deputy Mayor Doug Holyday

Councillor Adam Vaughan has always required developers looking to build in his Trinity-Spadina ward to set aside 10 per cent of their buildings for three-bedroom units.

“Where will these children play — on King St.?†Holyday asked skeptically.

The city’s acting chief planner, Gregg Lintern, told Holyday that the area in question is “a neighbourhood, an emerging neighbourhood.†Lintern added that “it just makes for a healthier city†to have families living downtown.

Holyday, dubious, said, “It makes for a healthier city to have children out on a street like King St. where it’s bumper-to-bumper traffic and people galore at all times of night and day? I just think of raising my own family there. That’s not the place I’d choose.â€

Lintern told Holyday that there are parks in the area. “In general, it might help to think about Manhattan or living in a European city where people live everywhere no matter what area of the city,†Lintern said. “They have families, they raise families the same way they would in other areas of the city, they go to school, they go to work, everything happens in the same fashion, it’s just that it’s in an urban form.â€

Holyday then tabled a motion to eliminate the 10 per cent requirement. “As far as raising your children downtown, maybe some people wish to do that. I think most people wouldn’t,†he said to jeers from other councillors. “I mean, I could just see now: ‘Where’s little Ginny?’ ‘Well, she’s downstair playing in the traffic on her way to the park!’â€

:rolleyes:
 
^ ^ ^

OMG, how friggen ignorant.
these are the people running this city ?!?

how long has he lived in Toronto ?!?!?
 
How ignorant?

This ignorant, according to the Star's follow-up story.

But Wa, who lives in a condo with her husband, Adam Parkin, and children, who are 10, 6 and 2, said raising kids downtown is safe and convenient.

“I see mostly benefits, which is why I’m here,†she said, standing in the shade of a park near Spadina Ave. and Adelaide St.

Wa is part of a generation of young families choosing to live downtown and take advantage of its amenities. Some 40 other families are doing the same in her building alone.

Their reasons vary from sustainability to accessibility of cultural activities, but Wa said they all want many of the same things: improved city policies that take into account the growing population of families like themselves. She called Holyday’s comments provocative.

Ah yes. From the great minds who gave us "The War on Cars."
 
We need to remove these ignorant, car centric councilors.

Smart councilors (i.e. Kristyn Wong-Tam) who recognize the growing demographic trend to city center living will thrive in future. We can only hope the other car-centric councilors get kicked out ASAP before we slip further behind more progressive health oriented cities.

Toronto is a great city to raise a family, but could be so much better! :)
 
How ignorant?

We won't have a choice if we are to survive.

Also, I don't believe that we can impose on younger generations the old 20th century dream of a house, 2 car garage and picket fence. Many of them get that sustainability means growing up, not further out along the 400 highways.

Also, my guess is, if you grew up in one of the exurbs, the last thing you will want is to submit your kid to the same torture.

My son was able to take the subway to his high school and his summer job, to hang out in cafes, Withrow Park and on the islands and beaches with his friends, to go to concerts at Massey hall or Harbourfront or where ever, learn that not all clothing comes from US chain stores and that not all food comes from cookie cutter restaurants like Kelsey's and Jack Astors.

He can also parallel park. Burbies can't do that. Ever notice? :p
 
Some buy houses in suburbia for the "space". Like this house that was gutted by fire in Markham, hurting 3 people. There were 12 people living in that house.

68fec29c42f9b76629c2d7135e84.jpg


See this link.

Three people were hurt — one seriously — after flames erupted in Markham Friday morning, gutting a house near Steeles Avenue and Markham Road.

There were 12 people inside the house on Eastvale Drive who managed to get out, Markham Fire Chief Bill Snowball told CityNews. The three injured people were in the basement and they were assisted out of the house by the homeowner.

A local resident named Shirlene said there were children inside the home, including a baby. The mother and baby were “taken into an ambulance," she said.

The fire was so intense that Toronto Fire crews assisted in the response. The blaze was a particularly tough one for crews to tackle considering the hot weather and heat from the flames, Snowball explained.

“You’ve got a combination of the fire and the extreme heat so we rotate them through a rehab system and try and keep everyone’s core temperature down and keep them well hydrated,” he said.

A man was rushed to Sunnybrook hospital with burns and smoke inhalation. Two others were taken to Markham Stouffville hospital with undisclosed injuries.

Firefighters arrived at the scene just before 5 a.m. to find the home fully engulfed in flames.

Aside from the flames in the house, three vehicles also went up in flames and crews had to use foam to extinguish the blaze that was exacerbated by a gasoline leak in one of the cars.

Damage is pegged at $500,000. There’s no word yet on a cause.

Investigators from the Ontario Fire Marshal’s office have been called to probe the blaze.

This is probably a "family". When I worked for the Census, I saw houses that listed 15 people or more in houses.
 
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True enough

But that's hardly typical. Perhaps of multi-generation new Canadian families. But not your average couple with one or two kids. Besides, that sounds like it was a boarding house or illegal multi-unit rentals.
 
But that's hardly typical. Perhaps of multi-generation new Canadian families. But not your average couple with one or two kids. Besides, that sounds like it was a boarding house or illegal multi-unit rentals.

dont know if that was a boarding house or otherwise, but if the image above is the family, many new south asian immigrants live together as multi-generational and mult-families (related) in the same household for economics.

besides, that house isn't small ... probably around 2.500+ sq ft
 
Speaking of smaller homes...in the National Post today,"Why Canada's houses are getting smaller":

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/0...-home-why-canadas-houses-are-getting-smaller/

The incredible shrinking home: Why Canada’s houses are getting smaller

Tristin Hopper Jul 13, 2012 – 8:13 PM ET

Akua Schatz and Brendon Purdy have trouble finding space for a coffee table, not to mention the baby they are expecting this fall.

The couple, both in their mid-30s, live in a 500 square foot home in the Vancouver neighbourhood of Dunbar. Completed last year for $280,000, the modernist two-storey home stands on what used to be Mr. Purdy’s parents’ backyard.

While the style may be precedent-setting for Vancouver, they are not alone in living small. Increasingly, young families in the city’s constricted housing market are eschewing a distant suburban address for the ease and walkability of the core – even if it means doing it without enough space for a Christmas tree.

From post-war bungalows to 1990s McMansions, the Canadian house has spent the last 60 years progressively ballooning into one of the largest domiciles in history. But amid shrinking lot sizes, skyrocketing land prices and a new generation of homeowners uninterested in the lures of suburban life, the ever-expanding Canadian house has finally reached its apex. After decades of pushing the limits of human dwellings, Canada’s unbridled passion for square footage is coming to an end.

“Smaller space, bigger lifestyle,†said Ms. Schatz.

In 1947, to accommodate a wave of post-war home construction, the Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation began publishing catalogues of housing plans drawn up by prominent Canadian architects. They were cheap and well-planned, but shockingly to modern eyes, they were often no bigger than 1,000 square feet. The typical Canadian of the Louis St. Laurent era, it seems, was raising pre-birth control-sized families in homes half the size of a volleyball court.

“Canadians were pretty down-to-earth people in those days. They bought as much as they could afford and expanded later if they could afford it,†Canadian architectural historian Ioana Teodorescu told Postmedia in 2009.

And expand they did. Powder rooms, family rooms, enclosed garages; by 1975 home sizes had jumped to 1,075 square feet. But still, their children, the Baby Boomers, shared bedrooms and coped with the weekday morning ritual of waiting for a spot in the home’s only bathroom.

Crazed for elbow room, when the Boomers finally seized the reins of home ownership in the 1980s, all hell broke loose: Wide hallways, gargantuan entrance halls, mud rooms. By the turn of the millennium, Canadians lived in some of the world’s largest houses – and were filling them with some of the world’s smallest families. In 2002, a U.K. market analyst lined up developed countries according to how many of its citizens owned homes with more than five rooms. Canada easily bested Australia, the U.S. and New Zealand for the top spot.

But then, by 2007, the meteoric growth of Canadian houses began to slow to a trickle, according to floor size data compiled by Natural Resources Canada. In its latest industry survey, the Canadian Home Builders Association reported that the average new home size had dropped to 1,900 square feet – well down from a mid-2000s peak of 2,300 square feet. According to internal forecasts, they are only going to get smaller, reported the association.

Craig Alexander, chief economist of TD Bank Financial Group, says that Canadian cities simply ran out of space. In the 1950s, the CMHC’s “catalogue homes†were often plunked down in a sea of grass. Over the years, lot sizes stayed pretty much the same, but builders added storeys, dug out basements and pushed the front steps to the sidewalk. “We’ve gone from land rich and house poor to land poor and house rich,†said Mr. Alexander. “If the square footage has levelled off, it’s probably because we’re building the biggest homes we possibly can on the existing lots,†he said.

Following the 2008 U.S. housing market collapse, new U.S. homes immediately sloughed off the equivalent of a large bedroom and by 2011, the American Institute of Architects reported that cash-conscious homeowners were increasingly shrugging off the “special†features of decades past: Mud rooms, home theatres and outdoor living rooms. Canada, too, is witnessing the slow death of walk-in closets, hobby rooms and even the once-ubiquitous living room. “We haven’t built a living room in the past two years,†Greg Graham with Ottawa’s Cardel Homes, told Postmedia in April.

Canada’s housing stock is drifting toward the “European model,†said McGill architecture professor Avi Friedman. Never ones for picket fences and outdoor barbeques, most Germans, French, Italians and Spaniards raise their families in flats, maisonettes and terraced houses.

The British, inventors of the lawn, can now claim the smallest homes of all, with the average new home clocking in at just over 800 square feet. “Room to swing a cat? Hardly,†commented the BBC. Tellingly, while Prime Minister Stephen Harper occupies a mansion in Ottawa, his U.K. counterpart occupies a non-descript townhouse jammed into downtown London.

“If you take the typical Canadian home and take out all the wasted space, you have a European home,†said Mr. Friedman, speaking by Skype from Northern France, where he is midway through a tour of European housing projects. “They’ll have the same number of rooms, the same uses, but they will all be smaller.â€

Luckily, two decades of condo building have already steeled Canadians for the realities of tiny spaces. Last year, a slate of new Vancouver developments offering condos as small as 400 square feet – about two-thirds the size of a Skytrain car. But what the micro-condos lack in square footage, they are balancing with efficient design: Tight entranceways, smaller bedrooms and a rabid aversion to hallways.

House builders are taking the hint. “People are doing with less space, but they want it to be a richer experience,†said Ben Taddei, COO of ParkLane Homes, a Vancouver-area house builder. “Large landings, sweeping staircases, those have all gone the way of the dodo bird.†Where past homes counted separate dining rooms, living rooms and kitchens, Mr. Taddei’s designers simply combine them all into a single “great room.â€

The Milllennials, the generation born from 1983 onwards, enjoyed a childhood free of bunkbeds or even shared bathrooms. Growing up in plush megahomes undoubtedly helped them become, in the words of one author, “self-centred, needy, and entitled with unrealistic work expectations.†Oddly, it also spawned a group of people patently unimpressed with backyards and breakfast nooks.

Under current economic forecasts, Millennials are poised to spend their early adulthood decidedly less affluent than their parents. They are also facing a housing market that has outpaced income growth for well over a decade. Mr. Friedman calls it a “perfect storm of phenomena†that is making homebuyers “physically and psychologically comfortable†in small spaces, said Mr. Friedman. Condo towers and row-houses will continue to sprout, he predicts, and as boomers vacate their large suburban houses for retirement, developers and municipalities will carve them up into apartments, duplexes and laneway houses.

“In 2006, the market peaked and everybody got back to the idea of ‘We’ve got to make houses smaller and we’ve got to make them more affordable,†said Brian Johnston, CEO of Mattamy Corp., Canada’s largest builder of new homes. “I don’t think it’s a matter of personal preference, people just can’t afford to live in those big houses anymore.â€

Except, of course, in Alberta. In the land of $85,000 median wages and dirt-cheap housing lots, young families are still snapping up giant, single-family homes like it’s still 1985.

“Edmonton has more space per person than any major city in Canada,†Sarah MacLennan, marketing director with Edmonton’s Coldwell Banker Johnston Real Estate, wrote in an email to the Post. “Our average single family home size has actually gone up.†While other cities cope with forests of new downtown condo towers, in Edmonton’s centralized areas schools are starting to shut down due to low attendance.

In Calgary, even the condos are 4,000 square foot “monsters,†said Bob Jablonski, president of the Calgary Real Estate Board. “There’s a lot of money in Calgary, old and new,†he said.

Fifty years ago, when land was cheap and the asphalt on Vancouver’s Highway 99 were still fresh, Ms. Schatz says it is quite likely she and her husband would have sprung for a typical white-picket fence home in the suburbs. But now, with suburban isolation, a regional smog cloud and clogged highways to worry about, the choice was easy. “You’re looking at three-hour commutes, and I just don’t want to spend my life doing that,†she said.

And their plan is conveniently inter-generational: The grandparents in the nearby big house will help babysit, Ms. Schatz and Mr. Purdy – both in their mid-30s – will help them with household repairs. Eventually, said Ms. Schatz, the two will switch places.

Since Vancouver gave the green light to laneway houses in 2009, the city has received 500 applications, with 50 new applications trickling in every month. With the massive single-family home increasingly out of reach for all but the wealthiest buyers, said Mr. Friedman, the middle-class entrants are instead “seeking comfort in other things.â

For Ms. Schatz, at least, her tiny house has put her only a 10-minute bike ride from work, a short walk from the beach and in a home just cramped enough to push them outside on sunny days. “People can sacrifice space for that,†she said.

National Post
thopper@nationalpost.com
 
http://www.thegridto.com/blog-post/holyday-says-suburbs-are-safer-for-kids-hes-wrong/

Holyday says suburbs are safer for kids. He’s wrong.

Doug Holyday, the deputy mayor of Toronto, is a generally decent, polite—one wants to say almost genteel—person to deal with most of the time, but something about speaking in the council chamber brings out his cranky yelly old man. The standard joke among City Hall watchers is that he turns into Grandpa Simpson, but he also reminds me of Dana Carvey’s Grumpy Old Man from Saturday Night Live, which you cannot apparently view on video online if you live in Canada, otherwise there’d be a hilarious and cranky trip down memory lane embedded here.

Anyhow, today Holyday let loose with a humdinger of a rant, from what I understand, about how the downtown is no place to be rearin’ children–it’s not safe, you see. “Where’s little Ginny? Well, she’s downstairs playing in the traffic on the way to the park!†he said, according to Daniel Dale of The Star.

So are the suburbs, as the voice of the 1950s tell us, really a better place to raise kids?

Last year, Tamson McMahon of Postmedia reported on studies showing that cities are safer than suburbs:


While many parents worry that city living could mean their children will be abducted or caught in the crossfire of a gang shooting, it is exceedingly rare for children to be harmed or murdered by strangers, says William Lucy, a University of Virginia urban planning professor whose studies on safe communities are most often quoted by parents arguing for city living. Perceptions about urban safety are still “lagging well behind reality,†Lucy says. In reality, the greatest risk to children is car crashes, which are more likely to occur in the suburbs, where children spend more time in cars or playing next to busy roads. “In terms of traffic fatalities versus homicides by strangers, it’s almost a 13-to-one ratio,†he says. His 2009 study analysing Virginia’s major cities, suburbs and rural areas found that lower-density areas were the most dangerous, while the safest communities, for the most part, were high-density cities. Not only did low-density communities have more traffic fatalities, but they were also the most dangerous places for stranger homicides.

[...]

Police in Ontario reported in 2009 that both violent crime and fatal collision rates were lower in Toronto than in neighbouring suburban Peel and York regions. A series of reports from the Ontario Injury Prevention Resource Centre showed that compared to its suburban neighbours, Toronto had the lowest rates of emergency room visits for motor vehicle collisions among the province’s seven health districts, along with the lowest rates of ER visits for cycling accidents involving children and the second-lowest rates of emergency room visits for violent crimes against children. A 2005 report from the Ontario College of Family Physicians warned of the “growing body of evidence (that) suggests there are significant public-health costs of spread out urban development.†Its research is based mainly on a 2003 study from Rutgers University of 450 American cities that found people were five times more likely to die in car crashes in a sprawling community compared to a tightly packed one.

And then there’s this report from the Ontario College of Physicians on the social and mental health impacts of urban sprawl [PDF]:


Sprawl impacts negatively on well-being by eroding social capital, robbing people of all ages of the opportunity to have a balanced healthy lifestyle, degrading the surrounding natural environment,and increasing the stress of commuting, which not only impacts on mental health but also physical health.

[...]

Research shows that living in car-dependent areas with high traffic affects children even before they are born. A study in Los Angeles County showed that pregnant women who live near busy highways and roads have a 10-20%increase in risk of having premature and low birth weight babies. A Denver study showed that children living within 250 yards of a road with 20,000 or more vehicles per day using it are eight times more likely to get leukemia and six times more likely to get other cancers because of exposure to car exhaust pollutants associated with cancer.

So yeah. But Holyday sure can be entertaining.
 

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