Eglinton-Crosstown Corridor Debate

[GraphicMatt]

It's a bit interesting that McCuaig specifically mentions Eglinton's Airport/Mississauga connection. Could the Liberals restore some of the cut funding for TC to build the complete Eglinton line (with airport connection) as part of their election platform?

If they can find the money this makes sense as it:

- Maintains the heart of Transit City and solidifes Metrolinx as an agency with clout
- Pacifies Ford in the sense that he can still do a little subway extension on Sheppard or whatever (Plus it keeps him from getting angry at McGuinty and campaigning for Hudak in the fall.)
- Provides the Liberals with some electoral juice in many mid-Toronto ridings, and even Mississauga

Total speculation on my part, but the Ontario Liberals need some big items for their platform this fall, and this could be a good one.

 

[DavidH]

I think it was more politics than straight resistance to the idea. No one was coming to the table to pay for the considerable upfront costs of an electronic payment system. Even when the province finally moved on PRESTO, it came with a "And the TTC can pay for it!" proviso that just ended up pissing everybody off.

True, but I have also heard that TTC staff were very obvious in showing a "not invented here" attitude in Presto meetings. I suspect some of it was simply the fact that it was coming from the province and not from them.

 

[Hipster Duck]

I think it was more politics than straight resistance to the idea. No one was coming to the table to pay for the considerable upfront costs of an electronic payment system. Even when the province finally moved on PRESTO, it came with a "And the TTC can pay for it!" proviso that just ended up pissing everybody off.

Okay, but I don't know why the TTC didn't just ask the province/feds to pay for this like they did for Transit City. Having new machines, an iconic smart card and new fare gates is easily as visible as a new rapid transit line, and it hasn't stopped higher governments in other places that are easily as concerned about optics from funding them.

Personally, I'd be happy with a slightly extended LRT tunnel, I'd prefer no elevated sections, and I loathe ICTS.

Out of curiosity, why do you loathe ICTS? It has a lot of the advantages of conventional rail technology, some added benefits, and costs less to build. Of course, if you've only been exposed to ICTS the way the TTC runs it, it would be like hating seafood because your mother burned the Captain Highliner when you were a kid. In Toronto they just run the same four car shuttle back and forth at the same frequency, haven't upgraded the interior, and have some union guy operating the door. In Vancouver, I've seen a 2-car Mk2 Millennium line train enter a station barely 30 seconds after the first 6 car expo line was whisked away. They can interline trains without signal delays and they also accelerate like rockets. In many ways, it really is an advanced form of rapid transit technology.

 

[Rainforest]

It's a bit interesting that McCuaig specifically mentions Eglinton's Airport/Mississauga connection.

Maybe Metrolinx wants to underscore its position as a region-wide planning agency, and Eglinton line is the only one in the pipeline that can be positioned as inter-regional.

Honestly, if Metrolinx gives up on Eglinton and lets Ford cancel it, then its CEO and other brass can as well write resignation notes, pack their stuff, and head towards the exit. Their jobs would become completely redundant.

 

[Rainforest]

{ICTS} It has a lot of the advantages of conventional rail technology, some added benefits, and costs less to build. Of course, if you've only been exposed to ICTS the way the TTC runs it, it would be like hating seafood because your mother burned the Captain Highliner when you were a kid. In Toronto they just run the same four car shuttle back and forth at the same frequency, haven't upgraded the interior, and have some union guy operating the door. In Vancouver, I've seen a 2-car Mk2 Millennium line train enter a station barely 30 seconds after the first 6 car expo line was whisked away. They can interline trains without signal delays and they also accelerate like rockets. In many ways, it really is an advanced form of rapid transit technology.

One problem is performance during snowfalls. If they keep the yard at Bellamy, then even the underground central section of Eglinton might be affected during snowfalls, as the trains will not be able to get there in the morning.

Another problem is fleet / rail incompatibility with any future LRT lines running on the N-S streets that cross Eglinton.

The third problem is reliance on a single supplier in future. Many manufacturers can build LRT, but only one builds Mk-II vehicles. Several decades from now, we might see a repeat of the current SRT situation: new vehicles for the existing line cannot be ordered and therefore the line must be rebuilt.

I doubt that ICTS will be cheaper to build than fully grade-separate LRT, based on the cost analysis in the SRT / SLRT study. It gave very similar numbers for the LRT option and for the ICTS / ALRT option.

 

[Rainforest]

I'd prefer no elevated sections

Not at all?

I'd think that, at least, elevated over the Black Creek crossing and maybe around Eglinton Flats (near Jane) can be considered. (But underground between those two sections, through Mount Dennis.)

East of Brentcliffe and to Don Mills, the cheapest option is probably at-grade on the south side of Eglinton, separated from the traffic and pedestrians. But as an alternative, a new bridge over Don River and Seton park, and getting to Ontario Science Centre before turning north to the Eglinton / Don Mills intersection, might be considered.

And an elevated structure through the Golden Mile might be not a bad idea if it is street-scaped well (more like the U-6 line in Vienna, and not like Gardiner south of Union).

 

[DavidH]

One problem is performance during snowfalls. If they keep the yard at Bellamy, then even the underground central section of Eglinton might be affected during snowfalls, as the trains will not be able to get there in the morning.

Another problem is fleet / rail incompatibility with any future LRT lines running on the N-S streets that cross Eglinton.

The third problem is reliance on a single supplier in future. Many manufacturers can build LRT, but only one builds Mk-II vehicles. Several decades from now, we might see a repeat of the current SRT situation: new vehicles for the existing line cannot be ordered and therefor the line must be rebuilt.

I doubt that ICTS will be cheaper to build than fully grade-separate LRT, based on the cost analysis in the SRT / SLRT study. It gave very similar numbers for the LRT option and for the ICTS / ALRT option.

I can't disagree with any of that, but I wonder that the fact that it's not a "streetcar" in any sense might make it more acceptable to Ford on Eglinton?

 

[Rainforest]

I can't disagree with any of that, but I wonder that the fact that it's not a "streetcar" in any sense might make it more acceptable to Ford on Eglinton?

Perhaps; but my impression is that Ford is not detail-oriented at all when it comes to public transit, and the distinction between a light rail train and an ICTS train is way too subtle for him.

He does not hate streetcars per se; he hates anything that occupies traffic lanes and requires operating subsidy.

Besides, it is not a one-man show; Metrolinx and McGuinty are not powerless. If it is entirely up to Ford, he will direct all funds to his Sheppard subway just because it is a simple solution. If he has to compromise, then it shouldn't be harder to sell LRT (grade-separated) to him than to sell ICTS.

 

[k10ery]

Maybe Metrolinx wants to underscore its position as a region-wide planning agency, and Eglinton line is the only one in the pipeline that can be positioned as inter-regional.

Honestly, if Metrolinx gives up on Eglinton and lets Ford cancel it, then its CEO and other brass can as well write resignation notes, pack their stuff, and head towards the exit. Their jobs would become completely redundant.

Shirley he is saying that it is not an option for Ford to just build the tunneled portion of ECLRT and cannibalize the at-grade sections that connect to regional hubs to pay for part of the B-D extension. No?

 

[Rainforest]

Shirley he is saying that it is not an option for Ford to just build the tunneled portion of ECLRT and cannibalize the at-grade sections that connect to regional hubs to pay for part of the B-D extension. No?

Ford does not want to build even the tunneled portion of ECLRT, he wants to divert all money to Sheppard subway because it looks so simple on the map. The fact that ECLRT's tunnel is already designed, whereas Sheppard extension will take several years to design and no construction will occur before that, does not bother him.

Metrolinx has a much better chance to counter Ford on Eglinton (a line with inter-regional significance) than on SELRT or Finch (obviously local lines). And if Metrolinx does not stand behind Eglinton, then it becomes an essentially useless agency (any real deals made between the municipal mayor and the Ontario's Premier, what's the Metrolinx's role anyway).

 

[Tulse]

Ford does not want to build even the tunneled portion of ECLRT, he wants to divert all money to Sheppard subway because it looks so simple on the map.

I doubt that he really "wants" to build any transit -- I think Sheppard is just a distraction, a project that he can tout without doing anything about.

 

[Dan416]

I think the rational compromise would be to build Eglinton as is and cancel SELRT and replace it with a subway extension and cancel the SRT conversion and replace it with a Danforth extension to STC. The difference in price would be up to the City to cover. If they don't want to cover it, then something would have to be cut. I'd be fine with cutting back Sheppard to Vic Park for now. Or just leaving it as is.

 

[kd86]

I think the rational compromise would be to build Eglinton as is and cancel SELRT and replace it with a subway extension and cancel the SRT conversion and replace it with a Danforth extension to STC. The difference in price would be up to the City to cover. If they don't want to cover it, then something would have to be cut. I'd be fine with cutting back Sheppard to Vic Park for now. Or just leaving it as is.

I think its becoming more and more clear with Metrolinx and Ford's team that a subway to STC will not be feasible. I think its been talked about on here already but I think people are realising there no point of replacing one grade seperate system with another, plus the current srt alignment has potential to server more people, the a subway.

 

[EnviroTO]

I think its becoming more and more clear with Metrolinx and Ford's team that a subway to STC will not be feasible. I think its been talked about on here already but I think people are realising there no point of replacing one grade seperate system with another, plus the current srt alignment has potential to server more people, the a subway.

That seems like a stretch of the imagination to me. Ford wants to build a subway. Both of his proposed lines were to SCC. I would expect at least one to actually go there. In my opinion the SRT replacement makes sense since the line being above ground currently and on a different alignment could continue to operate until the replacement is running. That seems like a huge benefit to me. In addition Kennedy station is not a key growth area, and SCC is. Honestly I would be shocked if a subway was not built towards SCC.

Who on Ford's team is saying a subway to SCC is infeasible? I think the only admission is that Eglinton is important. If the money for the Sheppard East LRT and Finch LRT were combined with the money already committed to the SRT upgrade I think you have funding for a subway from Kennedy to Scarborough and the Eglinton line funding could remain in place (maybe with a little extra to get the subway portion to Weston and Don Mills) which meets the cancellation of Transit City promise, the promise of a subway to Scarborough, and satisfies Metrolinx with the Eglinton line. The only reality with funding is that there isn't enough money for a Sheppard East subway to SCC plus an Eglinton LRT tunnel plus a fix for the aging SRT. The math doesn't add up for that.

 

[k10ery]

I doubt that he really "wants" to build any transit -- I think Sheppard is just a distraction, a project that he can tout without doing anything about.

I think you've got it exactly right - and the subway-philes around here need to realize that Ford is going to keep them sub-waiting forever.