Eglinton-Crosstown Corridor Debate

[Eug]

If I have a home in Toronto and a home in Ajax that are assessed at the same value, I will pay significantly less in property taxes for my home in Toronto.

That my home in Toronto is significantly smaller isn't really relevant to this calculation.

Of course it is. Higher priced homes in Ajax are in much lower density areas, and one may make the argument that the lower the density, the higher the cost to provide services to those homes. Although that may not be completely accurate, there is some partial truth to that.

When was the last time you had to plow the road for that penthouse condo?

 

[Darwinkgo]

Never thought I would see mostly self styled progressive defending rich people's low taxes. Especially when the same people mostly defend the vehicle registration tax (which is very regressive) and the property transfer tax (which is an extension of property taxes that unless it applies through inheritance, or with a surcharge on a property that doesn't turn over enough, could lead to massive tax discrepancies between groups that we can't even quantify yet).

Talking about services leading to tax rates - the taxes in Toronto aren't high enough to support the TTC operationally. Using your argument that lower service costs should lead to lower taxes, doesn't that blow it out the window? Service costs in Toronto aren't low.

 

[Eug]

Talking about services leading to tax rates - the taxes in Toronto aren't high enough to support the TTC operationally. Using your argument that lower service costs should lead to lower taxes, doesn't that blow it out the window? Service costs in Toronto aren't low.

Well, for what it's worth, public transit isn't usually paid for fully by property taxes in most cities around here.

I guess the argument some use for that is that public transit in the city is to pay for suburbanites using it in the city, so they should share in that cost, in the form of provincial taxation.

BTW, my arguments kind of fall down when you're talking about outer Scarborough vs. inner Pickering. I'm surprised nobody brought that up.

 

[EnviroTO]

Worst analogy ever... which is pretty much par for the course for those continually misleadingly claim that Toronto taxes are the lowest.

The costs of housing in Toronto are higher because people are willing to pay more. There is perceived value which is why people are paying more for their properties. Yes, if all the properties costed the same as in the GTA then there would be a differential, however there are higher costs in Toronto for social services and welfare, transit, police, etc. due to it being the centre of the region. Pre-amalgamation Toronto had no fiscal problems and the boroughs had difficulty. So I would imagine it is the higher cost of servicing the burbs that plays a part in the problem.

 

[Darwinkgo]

Well, for what it's worth, public transit isn't usually paid for fully by property taxes in most cities around here.

I guess the argument some use for that is that public transit in the city is to pay for suburbanites using it in the city, so they should share in that cost, in the form of provincial taxation.

BTW, my arguments kind of fall down when you're talking about outer Scarborough vs. inner Pickering. I'm surprised nobody brought that up.

So how is it being paid for? To my knowledge, outside of the lower mainland in BC and Quebec, operational costs of mass transit are covered by local municipalities' property taxes. (Save for Go Transit). The 'free rider' problem for out of city riders does exist, but I suspect it being much less than the city claims, since you can't count a 'free rider' taking just the subway as the same cost as a bus trip.

The costs of housing in Toronto are higher because people are willing to pay more. There is perceived value which is why people are paying more for their properties. Yes, if all the properties costed the same as in the GTA then there would be a differential, however there are higher costs in Toronto for social services and welfare, transit, police, etc. due to it being the centre of the region. Pre-amalgamation Toronto had no fiscal problems and the boroughs had difficulty. So I would imagine it is the higher cost of servicing the burbs that plays a part in the problem.

Pre amalgamation the TTC was received a direct subsidy from the province, and there were far fewer social services being provided by the city.

That all being said, you argument still comes down to you want the middle class to subsidize the rich. Toronto has more fiscal capacity to extract property taxes from its residents, and you want the city not to use it for some reason. For one second do you not realize that the extra fiscal capacity could be a result of being in the centre of the region?

What you are arguing is no different from arguing that all income above a certain threshold should be exempt from income taxes. Fair is fair - property taxes are already the closest thing we have to a flat tax in Ontario.

 

[Eug]

What you are arguing is no different from arguing that all income above a certain threshold should be exempt from income taxes. Fair is fair - property taxes are already the closest thing we have to a flat tax in Ontario.

You know it's funny, I don't actually disagree with the concept of raising residential property taxes, esp. if the city is able to approach the budget with reasonable restraint in mind. In fact, I said so in my very first post about this on the previous page. What I take issue with is the false claim that Toronto taxes are the lowest, because quite simply they aren't.

I also don't have a huge problem paying more property taxes in Toronto than in Ajax. However, the key here is I'm paying more, not less.

If people want to be honest about it, they should simply say that Toronto's mill rate is the lowest, with the caveat that Toronto home prices are generally higher. This would avoid all the dumb politicization of "lowest" vs. "highest" etc.

BTW, left leaning members of city council and the mayor used to say that Toronto had the lowest taxes. It's no wonder that many residents of the city thought the mayor and city council were completely full of it. People rightly came to that conclusion after they looked at their property tax bill, and then looked at their out-of-town cousin's bill.

 

[gweed123]

You know it's funny, I don't actually disagree with the concept of raising residential property taxes, esp. if the city is able to approach the budget with reasonable restraint in mind. In fact, I said so in my very first post about this on the previous page. What I take issue with is the false claim that Toronto taxes are the lowest, because quite simply they aren't.

I also don't have a problem paying more property taxes in Toronto than in Ajax. However, the key here is I'm paying more, not less.

If people want to be honest about it, they should simply say that Toronto's mill rate is the lowest, with the caveat that Toronto home prices are generally higher. This would avoid all the dumb politicization of "lowest" vs. "highest" etc.

Dumb politicizations is what politicians do best. Make a vague reference to why something appears too high or too low, and promise that they'll figure out a way to magically make it cost less, and the simpletons jump on it like a dog on a bone. It doesn't matter if the "facts" have been distorted or misrepresented, perception is reality in politics.

 

[Eug]

Dumb politicizations is what politicians do best. Make a vague reference to why something appears too high or too low, and promise that they'll figure out a way to magically make it cost less, and the simpletons jump on it like a dog on a bone. It doesn't matter if the "facts" have been distorted or misrepresented, perception is reality in politics.

Except it backfired in this case.

Miller's claims of Toronto's property taxes being the lowest always drew reactions of "WTF is that crazy person talking about?", etc. The more he claimed that, the more people were turned off by him, cuz well, it was just wrong and everyone knew it was wrong.

OTOH, create a reviled tax like the vehicle tax, and the next politician will jump on it like a dog on a bone and repeal it, and will look like a hero to the public despite its not really saving that much money.

 

[EnviroTO]

That all being said, you argument still comes down to you want the middle class to subsidize the rich. Toronto has more fiscal capacity to extract property taxes from its residents, and you want the city not to use it for some reason. For one second do you not realize that the extra fiscal capacity could be a result of being in the centre of the region?

What you are arguing is no different from arguing that all income above a certain threshold should be exempt from income taxes. Fair is fair - property taxes are already the closest thing we have to a flat tax in Ontario.

Better go back and read my posts. I made no suggestion that the middle class should subsidize the rich, no suggestion that the city's property taxes are too high, and stated "the costs of housing in Toronto are higher because people are willing to pay more" and the reason for this is largely due to being the middle of the region and costs are higher for the same reason. What post are you responding to?

 

[Darwinkgo]

Saying that we shouldn't have comparable tax rates for similarly valued property as our surrounding communities is advocating for subsidizing the rich. That property values are higher in the city proper is no excuse to not tax it at a comparable level.

 

[spider]

That all being said, you argument still comes down to you want the middle class to subsidize the rich. Toronto has more fiscal capacity to extract property taxes from its residents, and you want the city not to use it for some reason. For one second do you not realize that the extra fiscal capacity could be a result of being in the centre of the region?

Interesting verb, "extract" sounds like something that Dictators or Emporers do. Lucky for us, any official that used that term out loud would be in the ditch next election. I prefer that my City not extract taxes from me because it can and then look for somewhere to spend it and I doubt if I am alone in this opinion.

 

[GTS]

I haven't seen them myself but does anyone know how the tunnelled portion of the Eglinton LRT is going to operate? The reason that I ask is that I read that the tunnelling portion of building subways is a fraction of the cost that the stations cost here in Toronto (I have lived in quite a few cities now with rapid transit systems and I appreciate how Toronto designs MOST or ALOT of the subway/RT stations here). I appreciate that a lot of the time the streetcar or bus enters directly into the station at most of the stops I use (except my work one downtown but it isn't a far walk down and off University for me). Is the tunnelled portion going to have fare paid areas with all door off loading and boarding and are the connector bus routes, like say the 51 Leslie bus now going to terminate at the Eglinton LRT line and Station(?) instead of travelling on the surface of Eglinton to Eglinton Station at Yonge. If it is proof of payment system where there are no fare collectors beside the LRT operator or someone on board checking fares it would be a lot cheaper project then full manned stations with a fare paid area. I don't know if they have ironed out the details yet- but just for the record, and I am sure you can guess, that I have become a great fan of the way Toronto and the TTC designs a lot of its station and I hope that the ECLRT gets designed this way as well it sure increased the ease and comfort of transferring compared to a lot of cities I lived in.

 

[EnviroTO]

Saying that we shouldn't have comparable tax rates for similarly valued property as our surrounding communities is advocating for subsidizing the rich. That property values are higher in the city proper is no excuse to not tax it at a comparable level.

At no time in any of my posts did I say Toronto's residential taxes need to be lowered nor did I suggest it should be kept lower than the rest of the GTA. I only stated that it is lower currently. Also, property taxes in Toronto pay for Toronto costs and there are poor people in Toronto who would benefit from welfare and social services the city provides and who would benefit from the lower tax rates in the city. Name the poorest parts of the GTA and you are likely to come up with a list of mainly Toronto neighbourhoods so the argument that lower Toronto property tax rates subsidize the rich makes no sense. If the items city council wants to pay for are paid for it would make no sense to raise property taxes to GTA levels simply to match. If they did so to bring down commercial and industrial property taxes that would make sense, but matching for the sake of matching makes no sense at all.

 

[reaperexpress]

I haven't seen them myself but does anyone know how the tunnelled portion of the Eglinton LRT is going to operate? The reason that I ask is that I read that the tunnelling portion of building subways is a fraction of the cost that the stations cost here in Toronto (I have lived in quite a few cities now with rapid transit systems and I appreciate how Toronto designs MOST or ALOT of the subway/RT stations here). I appreciate that a lot of the time the streetcar or bus enters directly into the station at most of the stops I use (except my work one downtown but it isn't a far walk down and off University for me). Is the tunnelled portion going to have fare paid areas with all door off loading and boarding and are the connector bus routes, like say the 51 Leslie bus now going to terminate at the Eglinton LRT line and Station(?) instead of travelling on the surface of Eglinton to Eglinton Station at Yonge. If it is proof of payment system where there are no fare collectors beside the LRT operator or someone on board checking fares it would be a lot cheaper project then full manned stations with a fare paid area. I don't know if they have ironed out the details yet- but just for the record, and I am sure you can guess, that I have become a great fan of the way Toronto and the TTC designs a lot of its station and I hope that the ECLRT gets designed this way as well it sure increased the ease and comfort of transferring compared to a lot of cities I lived in.

This link should help: http://www.toronto.ca/involved/proj...n_lrt/pdf/2009-11-20_display_panels_part1.pdf

Entrance & Payment Method
The typical underground station will include three station entrances, located on each side of Eglinton Avenue and at either end of the station. The entrances will be connected to a station concourse level through an underground walkway. The main entrance will be accessible in accordance with TTC Easier Access Standards including an elevator, escalator and stairs connecting to the concourse level. Elevator and escalator connections will be provided between the concourse and platform levels. All Transit City LRT routes will be proof-of-payment except at interfaces with subway stations. Ticket vending and validation machines will be located at the concourse level of LRT stations. At subway stations, the LRT will be accessed through existing subway paid entrances as well as new automatic entrances at select locations.
Platform length will be 60m initially, and expandable to 90m.

From what they're saying, it sounds like you'll be able to get on an LRV on Eglinton without paying (because it's POP) and once you transfer to the subway, you won't be able to get caught because it doesn't use POP.

 

[EnviroTO]

However if fares are validated at machines that validation would create a receipt which could be inspected at the station or onboard. The whole idea of POP is that you need to be able to prove payment or get fined. When people are getting off at the subway station that is one of the easiest places to set up a checkpoint for POP (much like the checkpoint set up for 509/510 streetcars on summer weekends where someone boarding 510 south on Spadina to Union must get a transfer to get into Union station.