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Eglinton-Crosstown Corridor Debate

What do you believe should be done on the Eglinton Corridor?

  • Do Nothing

    Votes: 5 1.3%

  • Build the Eglinton Crosstown LRT as per Transit City

    Votes: 140 36.9%

  • Revive the Eglinton Subway

    Votes: 226 59.6%

  • Other (Explain in post)

    Votes: 8 2.1%
  • Total voters
    379
One of the cities I lived in for many many years was Vancouver, and they operated the Expo Skytrain line on the honour system for payments. Unfortunately their has been a lot of fare evasion and last I heard they were contemplating getting rid of the honour system to help them with the loss of revenue this is causing the transit system there. New York City installed full height gated entrances instead of just a turnstile at a subway station I used to use because a lot of transit users used to just jump the turnstile quite often instead of paying their fare to get on the subway. Fare evasion is a big problem for some cities I have lived in and I am sure Toronto will have problems with this as well because this system gets a higher percentage of its revenue from fares then many other systems I am familiar with. People in Vancouver I used to work with used to brag to me that they never paid for their Skytrain ride!
 
I went to IKEA at Leslie today and watched a number of people walk into the station via the bus platform evading fares. The way most of the station bus loops are set up it is quite easy to evade fares. I'm a fan of the machine readable tickets / receipts. The ability to reverify passengers, to handle checking in and out of the system for distance based fare calculations or service level (GO vs local) calculations, etc makes it a huge positive. Tokens and transfers that aren't machine readable need to go... they aren't flexible enough and require more staff. I have seen stations where there are no staff at all and the escalator turns off when nobody is riding it, and due to machines and fare mechanisms all methods of payment are still handled. At the TTC you go to the King station entrance in the middle of downtown which is connected to Commerce Court and most of the day you can't use day passes, paper transfers, or coins.
 
Are they still going to expand Presto and if they do, do you know if the TTC is going to some needed revenue to say Missisauga Transit or York Region Transit (just 2 examples of all the transit systems that are to be covered under Presto)? I like the fact that the TTC gets a higher percentage of its revenue from fares then other cities I have lived in it fills me with a bit of pride that we don't subsidize public transit AS MUCH as other cities do, I just don't think Toronto can subsidize other region's transit systems. I read that my hometown of Montreal now has the Opus Transit pass up and running and they were able to get rid of a lot of the old turnstiles a few years ago I read. I don't get back there that often anymore as I have young children now. So to get back on topic- I guess the transit reader would be on the Eglinton LRT cars themselves?
 
EnviroTO said:
When people are getting off at the subway station that is one of the easiest places to set up a checkpoint for POP (much like the checkpoint set up for 509/510 streetcars on summer weekends where someone boarding 510 south on Spadina to Union must get a transfer to get into Union station.
Click to expand...

Absolutely. The problem is that such a fare checkpoint does not seem to exist in the plans for the Eglinton and Eglinton West interchanges. I'd rather they designed them in now, rather than retrofitting them later when they realize they're losing tons of money.

GTS said:
People in Vancouver I used to work with used to brag to me that they never paid for their Skytrain ride!
Click to expand...

Same here. In York Region, people are often bragging about how much money they save by not paying their Viva fares, even when you take into account the fines when they get caught.

GTS said:
Are they still going to expand Presto and if they do, do you know if the TTC is going to some needed revenue to say Missisauga Transit or York Region Transit (just 2 examples of all the transit systems that are to be covered under Presto)? I like the fact that the TTC gets a higher percentage of its revenue from fares then other cities I have lived in it fills me with a bit of pride that we don't subsidize public transit AS MUCH as other cities do, I just don't think Toronto can subsidize other region's transit systems. I read that my hometown of Montreal now has the Opus Transit pass up and running and they were able to get rid of a lot of the old turnstiles a few years ago I read. I don't get back there that often anymore as I have young children now. So to get back on topic- I guess the transit reader would be on the Eglinton LRT cars themselves?
Click to expand...

Presto has nothing to do with pooling money. It is simply a convenient way of keeping transit money in one place in your wallet. When you use a TTC fare with presto, the money goes to the TTC, not Metrolinx.

Ticket vendors will be on the platforms according to page 8 of this presentation:

Compared to typical streetcar platforms, LRT platforms will:
• be wider and longer
• provide shelter along the entire length
• be accessible
• provide lighting
• include ticket vending machines and other amenities
Click to expand...
 
I seem to remember, a couple of years ago, reading somewhere that Vancouver's honour system had been a net gain. IE the lost revenue was less than the cost of enforced fare collection. Now I see they're installing gates (jumpable, and still unmanned), so maybe things have changed since then. But then again, it will take up to 35 years worth of fare-evasion loses to recoup the installation cost of the gates.
 
SlickFranky said:
I seem to remember, a couple of years ago, reading somewhere that Vancouver's honour system had been a net gain. IE the lost revenue was less than the cost of enforced fare collection. Now I see they're installing gates (jumpable, and still unmanned), so maybe things have changed since then. But then again, it will take up to 35 years worth of fare-evasion loses to recoup the installation cost of the gates.
Click to expand...

Why bother if the technology for a walkthrough supermarket can be used as well on transit?

[video=youtube;eob532iEpqk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eob532iEpqk[/video]
 
Eug said:
Miller's claims of Toronto's property taxes being the lowest always drew reactions of "WTF is that crazy person talking about?", etc. The more he claimed that, the more people were turned off by him, cuz well, it was just wrong and everyone knew it was wrong.
Click to expand...
Why would you say something that was so wrong?

Toronto property taxes are not high. I'm not sure they are the lowest, but they are lower than most surrounding municipalities by most measures. An identical house on both sides of the municipal border between Toronto and any surrounding community is taxed lower.

Mill rates in Toronto are lower than surrounding communities.

A similarly priced house in Toronto to surrounding communities is taxed lower.

A median priced house in Toronto pays less total taxes than most surrounding communities.

We've discussed all this in other threads ... why do claim otherwise?
 
EnviroTO said:
I went to IKEA at Leslie today and watched a number of people walk into the station via the bus platform evading fares.
Click to expand...
How do you know they don't have passes? Perhaps they are simply avoiding those annoying gates.

I actually watched someone get trapped in one of the Leslie gates at that entrance a couple of weeks ago. He walked through the turnstile, and he ended up on the other side, but the bag he was carrying didn't ... a passenger exiting the station used their Metropass to let his bag get through!
 
Probably safe to assume those jumping the turnstiles don't have a Metropass.

And though I use the TTC about 100 times more often than the New York subway ... I've observed this more often in New York than in Toronto.
 
EnviroTO said:
I went to IKEA at Leslie today and watched a number of people walk into the station via the bus platform evading fares. The way most of the station bus loops are set up it is quite easy to evade fares. I'm a fan of the machine readable tickets / receipts. The ability to reverify passengers, to handle checking in and out of the system for distance based fare calculations or service level (GO vs local) calculations, etc makes it a huge positive. Tokens and transfers that aren't machine readable need to go... they aren't flexible enough and require more staff. I have seen stations where there are no staff at all and the escalator turns off when nobody is riding it, and due to machines and fare mechanisms all methods of payment are still handled. At the TTC you go to the King station entrance in the middle of downtown which is connected to Commerce Court and most of the day you can't use day passes, paper transfers, or coins.
Click to expand...

I agree with all this, and this underscores how much we are losing with our antiquated fare system - it's not just a "keeping up with the joneses" fetish, our paper ticket and token system encourages fare evasion and discourages innovative ways of dealing with the costs of transit service (eg. introducing fare-by-distance, premium services, etc.). I also would be willing to bet that the TTC could generate millions in potential revenue from the type of occasional riders who buy, say, a 20-ride smart card and only use it 15 times. There is something a lot less psychologically distressing about swiping a card rather than parting with a loonie and a toonie.

I never understood why the TTC was so resistant to the idea of upgrading our fare media; this bothered me much more than whatever route and mode expansion (TC vs. subway, etc.) plans they had.
 
Automation Gallery said:
Thats good news for Eglinton Ave. :)

Eglinton Transit City line may survive

A modified version of the Eglinton light-rail line, a key part of Toronto's Transit City plan, is likely to be constructed despite Mayor Rob Ford's assertions that his administration would focus on construction of new subway lines.

More...http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2011/01/04/eglinton-lrt-metrolinx653.html
Click to expand...

I'd be very interested in what modifications they have in mind in terms of:
- LRT vs ICTS vs heavy rail
- tunnel length
- use of elevated sections

Personally, I'd be happy with a slightly extended LRT tunnel, I'd prefer no elevated sections, and I loathe ICTS.
 
Hipster Duck said:
I never understood why the TTC was so resistant to the idea of upgrading our fare media; this bothered me much more than whatever route and mode expansion (TC vs. subway, etc.) plans they had.
Click to expand...

I think it was more politics than straight resistance to the idea. No one was coming to the table to pay for the considerable upfront costs of an electronic payment system. Even when the province finally moved on PRESTO, it came with a "And the TTC can pay for it!" proviso that just ended up pissing everybody off.
 
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