Eglinton-Crosstown Corridor Debate

[Amy Rose]

Why do I have to remember that? I have to pay income tax to the federal government, the provincial government, and then property tax to the city. Waste is waste. Lack of funding is lack of funding.

The province has control on the money, and if they want to pull out the money, they can, same with cancellation fees.

 

[Dan416]

Ford is free to "upgrade" whatever portion of TC he likes. But since he can't simply will money from other levels of government into existence, he'll have to fund it by raising taxes: property taxes, vehicle registration taxes, parking taxes, road tolls, and all those other things that he's against.

Contrary to your assertion, there's no magical pot of City money just waiting to fuel people's fantasy lines. Cancelling parts of TC will have significant money-wasting consequences. It really is TC or nothing, at least within the next 10 years. And unfortunately, Ford seems to be making it quite clear that he prefers nothing.

Also: People on these threads keep asking why the TTC is so underdeveloped. The answer should be obvious: lack of funding and excessive political interference. This will be the second time in the last 15 years that a conservative politician has killed a multi-billion dollar transit expansion in Toronto. The fact is that the windows of opportunity when governments (a) have sufficient funds to invest, and (b) are comprised of transit-friendly political leanings, are probably both short and rare.

Faux Tea Partiers like Ford and Hudak are certainly not going to be funding multibillion dollar downtown subway expansions, since any money that could be used for them will inevitably be eaten up by tax cuts.

It would come out of the same magical pot of money that was originally earmarked for Transit City by Miller, that once the Province took over, they no longer had to pay. Simple.

 

[GraphicMatt]

This is the worst argument you have made so far. There was no funding plan for Transit City prior to MoveOntario. Plus the City was aware that the province was looking to fund transit projects when they drafted their Transit City plan.

Without the province, I supposed the city could have looked to new revenue sources like tolls or taken on more capital debt. Ford is not open to either strategy.

 

[Dan416]

This is the worst argument you have made so far. There was no funding plan for Transit City prior to MoveOntario. Plus the City was aware that the province was looking to fund transit projects when they drafted their Transit City plan.

Without the province, I supposed the city could have looked to new revenue sources like tolls or taken on more capital debt. Ford is not open to either strategy.

I see absolutely no reason the city can't contribute it's fair portion for transit being built within its own borders. If not half, then at least 1/3. I don't see how that's contentious.

 

[GraphicMatt]

The city receives only 9 cents of every tax dollar paid by its residents and is not allowed to ever carry an operating deficit. It has very limited funding abilities when compared to the provincial and federal governments.

 

[gweed123]

I see absolutely no reason the city can't contribute it's fair portion for transit being built within its own borders. If not half, then at least 1/3. I don't see how that's contentious.

Ottawa has been forced to do substantially over 1/3, closer to 1/2. Compared to that, Toronto has it good.

 

[Darwinkgo]

The city receives only 9 cents of every tax dollar paid by its residents and is not allowed to ever carry an operating deficit. It has very limited funding abilities when compared to the provincial and federal governments.

Torontonians pay far less tax on their property than just about every other major municipality in the country, save Calgary and Edmonton - not to mention the 905. Miller was just as guilty of not willing to raise taxes to pay for operating expenses as Ford is. No need for fancy new taxes - just tax us at the same level as Missisauga or York Region.

 

[Eug]

Torontonians pay far less tax on their property than just about every other major municipality in the country, save Calgary and Edmonton - not to mention the 905. Miller was just as guilty of not willing to raise taxes to pay for operating expenses as Ford is. No need for fancy new taxes - just tax us at the same level as Missisauga or York Region.

Here we go again...

It's true that my mill rate in Toronto is lower, but that doesn't mean I actually pay less tax.

But yeah, Miller should have raised taxes somewhat, AND cut costs earlier.

 

[nfitz]

It would come out of the same magical pot of money that was originally earmarked for Transit City by Miller, that once the Province took over, they no longer had to pay. Simple.

There is no such pot of money. The city never committed anything to Transit City, other than a few million for EA work. Had they self-funded it, it would have required a new source of revenue, other than building perhaps 1 or 2 km a year of LRT.

 

[EnviroTO]

It's true that my mill rate in Toronto is lower, but that doesn't mean I actually pay less tax.

The tax is tied to the cost of housing which is tied to your ability to pay for housing which is in turn tied to how much money you have. Many people choose to live in the suburbs because they can't afford to live in Toronto, but those who stay and afford more pay more but less per dollar. If two people making the same amount buy the same value of home in Toronto and the 905 the tax the Toronto resident pays is less. I consider that to be less tax. If I buy a big screen TV in Alberta and a MP3 player in Newfoundland I pay more tax in Alberta but taxes are still lower in Alberta.

 

[taal]

I'll only say this once because another thread already exists for tax issues but we pay way higher commercial tax rates and that's a huge issue (residential rates are only slightly lower):
(M = Mississauga, T = Toronto)

M RES: 0.98%
T RES: 0.83%

Total property tax (including provincial education component):
M COM: 2.14%
T COM: 3.59%

Provincial education component:
T = 1.66
M = 1.29 (this is from Markham actually but the 905 is similar throughout).

So about 170% greater.

 

[Dan416]

There is no such pot of money. The city never committed anything to Transit City, other than a few million for EA work. Had they self-funded it, it would have required a new source of revenue, other than building perhaps 1 or 2 km a year of LRT.

So you're saying that the City's "self-funded" plan for Transit City was a complete pipedream?

 

[nfitz]

So you're saying that the City's "self-funded" plan for Transit City was a complete pipedream?

I'm not aware of a self-funded plan. Who ever said it was self-funded. The whole scheme was announced shortly before the provincial funding appeared. They knew where the money was coming from ...

 

[Eug]

If I buy a big screen TV in Alberta and a MP3 player in Newfoundland I pay more tax in Alberta but taxes are still lower in Alberta.

Worst analogy ever... which is pretty much par for the course for those continually misleadingly claim that Toronto taxes are the lowest.

That's even worse than a car analogy.

 

[GraphicMatt]

If I have a home in Toronto and a home in Ajax that are assessed at the same value, I will pay significantly less in property taxes for my home in Toronto.

That my home in Toronto is significantly smaller isn't really relevant to this calculation.