Downtown-Wide 'Transportation Study' Planned by City

[leopetr]

Facilitating, what seems to be, the only efficient and accessible method for suburbanites to get downtown is not wrong, especially when there is no plan to provide any other method, other than driving, to get downtown.

Most commuters get downtown via GO and subway. Only a minority drive.

Driving is not efficient. Driving is the opposite of efficient -- it's extremely inefficient. A highway lane carries a maximum of 2000 vehicles per hour. Yonge subway carries a maximum of 36,000 riders per direction per hour. The subway is 18 times more efficient than driving.

 

[BMO]

Ummmm...have you not heard of the GoTrains? If they don't like the INfrequency, then maybe they can increase their densities to justify more frequency, but of course that would violate the suburban 'low density' choice, wouldn't it?

Did you not read any of my previous post, which clearly explains why GO train is not an efficient or easy way for many suburbanites to get into downtown.

 

[BMO]

Most commuters get downtown via GO and subway. Only a minority drive.

Driving is not efficient. Driving is the opposite of efficient -- it's extremely inefficient. A highway lane carries a maximum of 2000 vehicles per hour. Yonge subway carries a maximum of 36,000 riders per direction per hour. The subway is 18 times more efficient than driving.

You're misunderstanding me, It's the only efficient method to get downtown for a lot of people. In particular I'm thinking of people in the north East/ West of the city who are not directly on a GO train line. I never said most people drive downtown. I walk 1KM to an overcrowded steeles bus everyday, then have to spend 20minutes on the bus, and another 40 mins on the subway. It isn't more efficient, or faster for me.

 

[BMO]

So the poor suburbanites didn't have a choice in where they live? Really? How so exactly? Where you choose to live reflects your 'chosen' lifestyle.

I've had enough conversations with enough suburbanites to know that they'll defend the car and big houses and malls, etc. to no ends! So how is it not their choice? In fact, the 'choice' card is precisely what they use against me! They'll tell me I'm attacking their 'choices'! And then I try to explain how their choses lead to pollution, congestion, etc. and it goes round and round in circles...

...but then they cry when what they themselves created (i.e. car dependancy) turns around and bites them in the ass (i.e. rising gas prices, pollution and congestion and no time).

And when given an oppoprtunity to change that, they'll vote for someone who promises to maintain their precious choices.

Who stopped them from voting for a mayor who supports sustainable transportation instead of supporting someone who espouses the 'war on the car' nonsense. Wouldn't that give them an alternative that you say doesn't currently exist? And watch in a few months, they'll support another right-winged wack who'll tell us we can't afford better transit, and then the cycle will continue.

Take responsibility for your choices...nobody's stopping any suburbanite from moving closer to where they work (yes, this might require some downsizing...oh nooooo!). No one's stopping them from buying a smaller car (until they move closer to a subway line). No one's stopping them from opening their eyes and refusing to buy into the suburban/American crap, which is costing all of us...and no one's stopping them to vote for a pro-transit anti-sprawl candidate...(I can go on, but why labour it...I think you get the point).

...so please...spare me the 'poor' suburbanite crap.

So it's my fault, that decisions were made before my birth affecting the present urban form of the city. My fault I was born into a family in the suburbs, and that because of this I "themselves created (i.e. car dependancy) turns around and bites them in the ass"?

Get over yourself, and you're hipster downtown hippie garbage. I had no hand in creating the 401, 400, or 404 highways. It's not my fault when my family immigrated to Canada the only affordable land was in the suburbs (before I was born). And it's not my fault that apparently urbanites believe subways and rapid transit should be reserved only for inner city people. Telling me to take GO transit on the Barrie line from Vaughan in the middle of the day is a moot point since there is no all-day service.

for someone who is so keen on "taking responsibility for your choices" you sure have no guilt for voting (you as a Toronto resident) a mayor who supports cars. And you obviously have no guilt for cancelled rapid transit expansion in the suburbs that would address problems I outlined earlier (Finch West LRT).

but hey "Who stopped them from voting for a mayor who supports sustainable transportation instead of supporting someone who espouses the 'war on the car' nonsense. Wouldn't that give them an alternative that you say doesn't currently exist? And watch in a few months, they'll support another right-winged wack who'll tell us we can't afford better transit, and then the cycle will continue." 905 didn't vote for him, YOU did.

 

[BMO]

And by the way, as for adding more parking downtown to further facilitate the car oriented transport, I further like Vancouver's position, where they say,

"More cars and more space for parking would hamper the efficient functioning of the Downtown and result in congestion in surrounding Downtown neighbourhoods. In the future travel to and within the Downtown will rely more on transit, walking and biking".

Notice the focus on 'not' rewarding bad choices (i.e. facilitating suburbanites to drive and park downtown).



Ummmm...have you not heard of the GoTrains? If they don't like the INfrequency, then maybe they can increase their densities to justify more frequency, but of course that would violate the suburban 'low density' choice, wouldn't it?

I agree with you on this, what I'm saying is you can't take away capacity from the suburban people without giving them a viable alternative. A crowded suburban bus that stops at stop lights is NOT a viable alternative, and neither is a GO train that has morning and afternoon trips, with nothing in-between. I'd rather be stuck in traffic in a car with air conditioning and music. The bus is by far the most unpleasing event of my daily commute.

 

[Danielinthecity]

Brief for now

So it's my fault, that decisions were made before my birth affecting the present urban form of the city. My fault I was born into a family in the suburbs, and that because of this I "themselves created (i.e. car dependancy) turns around and bites them in the ass"?

Get over yourself, and you're hipster downtown hippie garbage. I had no hand in creating the 401, 400, or 404 highways. It's not my fault when my family immigrated to Canada the only affordable land was in the suburbs (before I was born). And it's not my fault that apparently urbanites believe subways and rapid transit should be reserved only for inner city people. Telling me to take GO transit on the Barrie line from Vaughan in the middle of the day is a moot point since there is no all-day service.

for someone who is so keen on "taking responsibility for your choices" you sure have no guilt for voting (you as a Toronto resident) a mayor who supports cars. And you obviously have no guilt for cancelled rapid transit expansion in the suburbs that would address problems I outlined earlier (Finch West LRT).

but hey "Who stopped them from voting for a mayor who supports sustainable transportation instead of supporting someone who espouses the 'war on the car' nonsense. Wouldn't that give them an alternative that you say doesn't currently exist? And watch in a few months, they'll support another right-winged wack who'll tell us we can't afford better transit, and then the cycle will continue." 905 didn't vote for him, YOU did.

I'm at work so will be brief in this post, but if your family chose to buy and live in the suburbs, then they DID have a hand in supporting the sprawling crap. So they should live with their choice! As for you, I don't know...I don't know how old you are, so you may be too young to make your own choices, and if so I hope that when you can make your own choices, they wont be to perpetuate the suburban nightmare.

As for not being able to afford housing in the city...check your facts! There's plenty of housing options that don't require leapfrog sprawling development...YES, it may mean you'll have to live in a smaller place. Awwwww... Get over it...you might actually like it given your increased accessibility.

Oh, and the reason that 'high-order' transit should be reserved for urbanites is b/c WE HAVE THE DENSITY TO SUPPORT IT...or do you expect that we subsidize your transit rides b/c the suburbs don't have the density to justify the costs of providing subway service to them? Haven't we been subsiding them enough already (in Toronto's inner suburbs)?

I didn't vote for him...the inner suburbanites did. I supported Transit City, except that I wished it included a DRL.

That's it for now...will respond more later.

Downtown urban hipster over and out.

 

[gweed123]

You don't make alternative forms of transportation more attractive by punishing drivers, you make alternative forms of transit more attractive by making those services more attractive (more lines, higher frequencies, etc).

This whole notion that the best way to boost transit ridership is to make driving more of a hassle is foolish. The best way to boost transit ridership is to make transit better.

 

[Danielinthecity]

...and nothing for the working class people who HAVE to use their car to get downtown, and HAVE to purchase a house in the suburbs, because they HAVE to feed their family, and cannot afford to live downtown where transit is much better.

Okay...one more post...are you serious! Move into a freakin apartment closer to transit...it doesn't have to be 'right' downtown...downsize...buy bunkbeds and share a room...! Just think of the money you'd save without the car...stop the violins, please...you 'do' have a choice...!

Okay, now back to work b/f I'm moving into an even smaller space than I currently occcupy...

 

[Danielinthecity]

You don't make alternative forms of transportation more attractive by punishing drivers, you make alternative forms of transit more attractive by making those services more attractive (more lines, higher frequencies, etc).

This whole notion that the best way to boost transit ridership is to make driving more of a hassle is foolish. The best way to boost transit ridership is to make transit better.

I agree. But I don't agree with making driving easier.

 

[gweed123]

I'm at work so will be brief in this post, but if your family chose to buy and live in the suburbs, then they DID have a hand in supporting the sprawling crap. So they should live with their choice! As for you, I don't know...I don't know how old you are, so you may be too young to make your own choices, and if so I hope that when you can make your own choices, they wont be to perpetuate the suburban nightmare.

So the new immigrant who lives in the highrise towers at Jane and Finch (or Lawrence Heights, or any other number of high density low-income residential clusters in the outer 416) had a hand in creating urban sprawl, even though they live in a higher density area than a lot of areas downtown?

As for not being able to afford housing in the city...check your facts! There's plenty of housing options that don't require leapfrog sprawling development...YES, it may mean you'll have to live in a smaller place. Awwwww... Get over it...you might actually like it given your increased accessibility.

How can you have leapfrog development in a city that's built up border to border to border? There's no room left within the City of Toronto to leapfrog into. If you're leapfrogging into anything, it's the 905, and they didn't vote for Ford, so they have no control over his anti-transit policies.

And as for affordability, there are a lot of people who do live on a pretty tight budget, for whom a $1300/month mortgage payment would get them a shitty apartment in a not-so nice area downtown (my roommate and I were paying $1250/month for a sh*thole apartment in St. Jamestown), when that same amount gets them a decent townhouse in Richmond Hill or Mississauga. Not everyone has the disposable income to afford a nice place in downtown.

 

[JoeParez]

You don't make alternative forms of transportation more attractive by punishing drivers, you make alternative forms of transit more attractive by making those services more attractive (more lines, higher frequencies, etc).

This whole notion that the best way to boost transit ridership is to make driving more of a hassle is foolish. The best way to boost transit ridership is to make transit better.

How can you have leapfrog development in a city that's built up border to border to border? There's no room left within the City of Toronto to leapfrog into. If you're leapfrogging into anything, it's the 905, and they didn't vote for Ford, so they have no control over his anti-transit policies.

And as for affordability, there are a lot of people who do live on a pretty tight budget, for whom a $1300/month mortgage payment would get them a shitty apartment in a not-so nice area downtown (my roommate and I were paying $1250/month for a sh*thole apartment in St. Jamestown), when that same amount gets them a decent townhouse in Richmond Hill or Mississauga. Not everyone has the disposable income to afford a nice place in downtown.

 

[Danielinthecity]

I agree with you on this, what I'm saying is you can't take away capacity from the suburban people without giving them a viable alternative. A crowded suburban bus that stops at stop lights is NOT a viable alternative, and neither is a GO train that has morning and afternoon trips, with nothing in-between. I'd rather be stuck in traffic in a car with air conditioning and music. The bus is by far the most unpleasing event of my daily commute.

I agree with you too on this. My 'entire' point is simply that I do not believe in 'facilitating' driving...simple...I DEFINITELY support expanding transit everywhere, but doing so in a cost-effective way, which means subways for high density, LRT for medium and bus for low UNTIL densities increase which I'd like to see all over the city (and beyond in the outer suburbs too).

 

[gweed123]

I agree. But I don't agree with making driving easier.

Even if making driving easier comes with bike lanes, dedicated transit lanes, and wider sidewalks?

Turning a 4 lane two-way street into a 3 lane 1-way street may make driving more efficient, but it will also create a whole host of other non-car related opportunities for improvement.

Saying "no way" to roadway improvements that make it easier for cars to drive is just as myopic as saying "no way" to dedicated bike lanes that make it more easy for people to drive. You're making yourself sound just as bad as the people who wanted the bike lanes on Jarvis taken away, you're just on the other side of the coin.

The world isn't black and white.

 

[Danielinthecity]

So the new immigrant who lives in the highrise towers at Jane and Finch (or Lawrence Heights, or any other number of high density low-income residential clusters in the outer 416) had a hand in creating urban sprawl, even though they live in a higher density area than a lot of areas downtown?

Hence why I said I supported Miller's Transit City plan.

How can you have leapfrog development in a city that's built up border to border to border? There's no room left within the City of Toronto to leapfrog into. If you're leapfrogging into anything, it's the 905, and they didn't vote for Ford, so they have no control over his anti-transit policies.

And as for affordability, there are a lot of people who do live on a pretty tight budget, for whom a $1300/month mortgage payment would get them a shitty apartment in a not-so nice area downtown (my roommate and I were paying $1250/month for a sh*thole apartment in St. Jamestown), when that same amount gets them a decent townhouse in Richmond Hill or Mississauga. Not everyone has the disposable income to afford a nice place in downtown.

Leapfrog was in reference mainly to the outer suburbs, but dont' kid yourself...it happened in the former Metro Toronto too. If it didn't areas that were only 'now' developing would have been filled in many many years ago.

 

[Danielinthecity]

Even if making driving easier comes with bike lanes, dedicated transit lanes, and wider sidewalks?

Turning a 4 lane two-way street into a 3 lane 1-way street may make driving more efficient, but it will also create a whole host of other non-car related opportunities for improvement.

Saying "no way" to roadway improvements that make it easier for cars to drive is just as myopic as saying "no way" to dedicated bike lanes that make it more easy for people to drive. You're making yourself sound just as bad as the people who wanted the bike lanes on Jarvis taken away, you're just on the other side of the coin.

The world isn't black and white.

I don't agree with facilitating a mode of transport that pollutes the air I breath and causes congestion and is costly to most.