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Debate on the merits of the Scarborough Subway Extension
- Thread starter kEiThZ
- Start date
syn
Senior Member
sixrings
Senior Member
they will complain that they are fully willing to raise taxes for more stops so the rest of Toronto should be equally enthused to help Scarborough get the transit it deserves by increasing their taxes as well. apparently the people who voted for ford and his fiscal conservative platform also want to double or triple the taxes to pay for transit. new campaign, start the gravy train.
Rainforest
Senior Member
syn
Senior Member
sixrings
Senior Member
These guys basically said give us a Danforth extension to STC and we won't complain any more. Now they are subway or nothing on Sheppard. Give a inch, take a mile
Hopkins123
Senior Member
You do realize that the Sheppard extension was supposed to be built before TYSSE and long before Eglinton Crosstown even became a priority, right? The citizens of northern Scarborough have been lied to for 15 years.
There comes a point where doing something is more affordable than passing the buck onto future generations. Because even 100 years from now after $2 billion+ is invested on light rail on Sheppard East residents will still want their subway. This issue simply isn't going away, no matter how much you wish it to be.
You guys need to pick your battles more wisely. Why keep insisting on LRT on Sheppard when the subway already in place there stands as a permanent roadblock? Talk about cutting off the nose to spite the face. Better to redirect your efforts to things like Crosstown expansion, East Bayfront/Portlands and Waterfront West LRTs.
sixrings
Senior Member
Hey I am all for taking shepherd funds and put them to other things like finch or the waterfront. But no matter what people in Scarborough will still complain not only about the stub but that the stub ends in north york. So even if we do build elsewhere we still have to listen to the constant grumbling of Scarborough residents and how poor their quality of life is because of it. Not only that but then comes the eventual if you dont build our subway now speech we will collectively block the votes for transit construction elsewhere. People in Scarborough need to be realistic about how much funds there are, how large scarborough really is, and what transit can actually be made to accommodate them. it is amazintg to me that the people who claim to have no choice but to live so far from the city center because this is all they can afford, at the same time demand strictly 5 star transit in their backyards. Thats like going to a soup kitchen and then asking why there is no steak and potatoes. I would have thought a hamburger was better than nothing.
sixrings
Senior Member
by the way, sure scarborough was lied to. But they also lied to themselves thinking that these promises were able to be fulfilled. Also the people who made the promises are politicians whom are known for lying. So heres the situation I need or want something. A known pathalogical liar tells me they can do it if i simply do this for them. Then they never deliver. At a certain point I lack sympathy because the choices people made are beyond inept.
Im beginning to think the real demerits for some people are that if we get a subway built from bloor to STC then we will set a precedent that our collective whining has power and will therefore be able to hijack future transit plans with more whining that we never got our subway completed on Sheppard.
Im beginning to think the real demerits for some people are that if we get a subway built from bloor to STC then we will set a precedent that our collective whining has power and will therefore be able to hijack future transit plans with more whining that we never got our subway completed on Sheppard.
robmausser
Senior Member
Firstly John Tory never pitched the Scarborough Subway, that was entirely Rob Ford. JT is just deciding to continue the subway.
Secondly, there is ample room in that corridor for both Smarttrack/RER and the SRT trackage.
Not for the Lawrence Smarttrack station, but it becomes redundant anyways if you keep the SRT.
Considering Ellesmere and other stations were cut from ST without issue, I don't think it would have been a problem.
UD2
Active Member
The corridor it self can fit 4 tracks, but existing placement doesn’t allow for that for in locations south of Ellesmere. They will need to stop service for construction. which will be deeply unpopular.
Also, given frequency, they may likely require a 3 track corridor for ST and RER to operate properly. Definitely no space for that with the SRT in place.
Also, given frequency, they may likely require a 3 track corridor for ST and RER to operate properly. Definitely no space for that with the SRT in place.
robmausser
Senior Member
If they absolutely needed space that was not available for tracks, they could cut and cover the SRT below the RER/ST tracks for a fraction of the cost of the scarb subway.
Leave Ellesmere as is, lower grade of SRT south of it, and make Lawrence an RER station.
But I think with the proper signaling 2 tracks is fine for that short stretch, as long as it opens up to 3 tracks north and 4 tracks onto the Lakeshore corridor as planned.
With no stations to stop at in the portion where the SRT is, theres no need to bypass. All trains will express through.
They will already need to stop service for 6 months for SRT refurbishment if they went that route, so it could be done then. Service stoppage is a reality of transit upgrades, and this whole idea that a 3.5 billion $ subway is warranted just so we don't have to stop service is lunacy.
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Johnny Au
Senior Member
Lawrence West should read "Lawrence East."Firstly John Tory never pitched the Scarborough Subway, that was entirely Rob Ford. JT is just deciding to continue the subway.
Secondly, there is ample room in that corridor for both Smarttrack/RER and the SRT trackage.
Not for the Lawrence Smarttrack station, but it becomes redundant anyways if you keep the SRT.
Considering Ellesmere and other stations were cut from ST without issue, I don't think it would have been a problem.
syn
Senior Member
See, this is the problem. Scarborough transit planning is being dictated by what people want, rather than what would actually be effective.
Why is a subway extension to STC a bad idea? Because the current Sheppard line is ridiculously underused. Building a subway extension here is exactly what you suggest - passing the buck onto future generations. There is no need for a subway. There's no need for a subway to STC either on the Bloor/Danforth Line, even though it's been about 50 years since Scarborough has had a subway station.
I'm not sure why the Sheppard extension is a 15 year lie either - the idea of one died a decade ago with the introduction of Transit City.
OneCity
Senior Member
Scarborough this, Scarborough that.
The LRT plan gets far too much credit than it deserves. The current subway plan is a bi-product of Political chaos which resides on both sides. Stops are wanted, but not so much the poor connectivity that came with the RT and proposed Miller LRT when given a voice. Ford tried then Glen Murray tried for compromise and that was it for any logical change. There were cheaper options rejected mainly by outside councilors. You don't here much about these alternatives being rejected by the opposition reporting Its still dumbed down to "evidenced based" LRT vs. an opportunistic one stop subway.
The LRT plan had some merit in the fact it was cheaper but it also was a very poor design in other ways, like the transfer, industrial route, walkability around stops. Atleast alleviating the transfer would have been a good compromise if nothing else was going to be optimized. It really wasn't that good of a plan, and to the detriment of everyone people will continue to turn a blind eye to the Sheppard stub and wonder why Scarborough residents wont support that poorly integrated design as well.
Scarborough wanted transit people here would actually use outside of those that have no other choice. But continue to blame Scarborough as this isn't the end. It was just as just the first of two LRT lines designed by ignoring the issues from transit mistakes from the past. A little compromise might go along away on Sheppard in the future, but I wouldn't hold my breath in this political climate. If we don't find a way to convert the stub, or finish the subway loop to SCC were asking for it. LRT can go east of Agincourt and thru Malvern. Really not worth fighting over the bigger scheme, but that's just my view. Blame Scarborough as you will, but these two LRT lines had real issues that could have been improved upon and are not the cats ass being fought over for a decade.
The LRT plan gets far too much credit than it deserves. The current subway plan is a bi-product of Political chaos which resides on both sides. Stops are wanted, but not so much the poor connectivity that came with the RT and proposed Miller LRT when given a voice. Ford tried then Glen Murray tried for compromise and that was it for any logical change. There were cheaper options rejected mainly by outside councilors. You don't here much about these alternatives being rejected by the opposition reporting Its still dumbed down to "evidenced based" LRT vs. an opportunistic one stop subway.
The LRT plan had some merit in the fact it was cheaper but it also was a very poor design in other ways, like the transfer, industrial route, walkability around stops. Atleast alleviating the transfer would have been a good compromise if nothing else was going to be optimized. It really wasn't that good of a plan, and to the detriment of everyone people will continue to turn a blind eye to the Sheppard stub and wonder why Scarborough residents wont support that poorly integrated design as well.
Scarborough wanted transit people here would actually use outside of those that have no other choice. But continue to blame Scarborough as this isn't the end. It was just as just the first of two LRT lines designed by ignoring the issues from transit mistakes from the past. A little compromise might go along away on Sheppard in the future, but I wouldn't hold my breath in this political climate. If we don't find a way to convert the stub, or finish the subway loop to SCC were asking for it. LRT can go east of Agincourt and thru Malvern. Really not worth fighting over the bigger scheme, but that's just my view. Blame Scarborough as you will, but these two LRT lines had real issues that could have been improved upon and are not the cats ass being fought over for a decade.
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