Debate on the merits of the Scarborough Subway Extension

[sixrings]

I wouldnt use scarborough this and scarborough that if onecity didnt try to write in a manner that he represents all the views of scarborough despite poll after poll showing it is not as clear cut as he is making it out to be. but im blocked so who cares.

 

[pstogios]

I wouldnt use scarborough this and scarborough that if onecity didnt try to write in a manner that he represents all the views of scarborough despite poll after poll showing it is not as clear cut as he is making it out to be. but im blocked so who cares.

I’ve said for years now that these threads should be called “coffey vs Reality” because that guy has to be the irrational person since Trump and everything here is about him, all the time.

The debates with that guy will never end until he gets a subway on every corner of Scarborough, “the media” starts referring to Scarborough as God’s Gift to Man AND every single politician in this city walks around with a “Respect Scarborough” tattoo on their foreheads.

All he wants is all transit for Scarborough no matter what the cost, and screw the rest of the city, they are lefty latte-sipping pinkos anyway. Maybe then he will leave us alone.

Until then, be prepared for his nonsense, contradictions, fiction and paranoia filling up this messageboard.

 

[Rainforest]

I’ve said for years now that these threads should be called “coffey vs Reality” because that guy has to be the irrational person since Trump and everything here is about him, all the time.

The reality is that SSE is getting built, much of the city is either OK with it or doesn't care either way, and just a few posters on this forum keep complaining how bad it is even though they wouldn't be riding either SSE or SLRT or anything that might have been built in this corridor.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

The reality is that SSE is getting built, much of the city is either OK with it or doesn't care either way, and just a few posters on this forum keep complaining how bad it is even though they wouldn't be riding either SSE or SLRT or anything that might have been built in this corridor.

1. We’re all taxpayers and they have a right to complain about how their money is being spent, regardless if they’re using that particular infrastructure

2. It’s absolutely ridiculous to assume that because someone is complaining about the SSE, they wouldn’t be using infrastructure in the corridor. If you care to look at polling from the area, you’d see the SSE is contentions even among Scarborough residents, despite many people waiting to paint this debate as being a unified Scarborough vs rest of Toronto thing. I myself have years of with commutes in excess of 1 hour between Scarborough and downtown or Scarborough and midtown, which only solidified my opposition to the project, as I don’t see this project providing material benefits for commuters (especially not relative to the $3.5 Billion cost).

 

[Sakraycore]

I'm not part of Scarborough's political system so I don't know what's really going on behind the scenes but I suspect there may be some shady stuff going behind the scenes as it is often the case when it comes to politics.

If I was in charge, I would build the 1 stop extension to STC so that it is possible to add a Lawrence station in the future. This is the only sensible thing to do since it appears there is no budget for the Lawrence station right now for w/e reason.

 

[OneCity]

1. We’re all taxpayers and they have a right to complain about how their money is being spent, regardless if they’re using that particular infrastructure

2. It’s absolutely ridiculous to assume that because someone is complaining about the SSE, they wouldn’t be using infrastructure in the corridor. If you care to look at polling from the area, you’d see the SSE is contentions even among Scarborough residents, despite many people waiting to paint this debate as being a unified Scarborough vs rest of Toronto thing. I myself have years of with commutes in excess of 1 hour between Scarborough and downtown or Scarborough and midtown, which only solidified my opposition to the project, as I don’t see this project providing material benefits for commuters (especially not relative to the $3.5 Billion cost).

To me its the insistence on a transfer laden plan is what has been so unrealistic for years now. Not you but some people here are so politically polarized they get severley upset and personally attack whenever I point out the obvious that these LRT lines are never going to be built because they are poorly integrated to what exists and have been called out for this poor integration politically. Meaning to.a large extent residents actually got a bit of a voice on the topic which also happened to be a major campaign item two elections in a row.

The SSE in its current state may be contentious within Scarborough right now but the transfer LRT is not wanted by the greater majority. That's the side you'll never hear much of. Scarborough voices will continue to get talked over,issues not disscused properly and contradict the bias narratives in this City's extensive "Left" media. (Yep cue the Trump, Ford insults) Just my opinion formed from moving from Downtown to Scarborough.

We are now building a one stop extension in the most expensive fashion as no alternatives were even taken seriously by the Politcal opposition or they were just upset the apple cart got tuned over, and Tory took advantage. Same nonsense is going to happen on Sheppard as the lack of attention to connectivity in the Sheppard LRT is so blatantly obvious to most of those who live here and moreso those who would used it regularly. It's ripe for political gain should the stub stay "as is" Those that don't live near here could obviously care less about it. Again there will likely be another LRT promotion in the "Left" media with little voice given to the majority Scarborough residents concerns. Still disappoints me they never even attempt to move to a discussion regarding the transfer points after all this time, would have helped change the discussion. But thats thier politics which doesn't align with reality.

I agree your opinions are as valid as anyones, im happy to keep debating the details respectively whether we agree to disagree or not. Atleast you never have to worry about being attacked personally to say what you'd like to say on this topic.

 

[Rainforest]

1. We’re all taxpayers and they have a right to complain about how their money is being spent, regardless if they’re using that particular infrastructure

I don't dispute that, in general. But some posters appear really fixated on SSE and go out of their way to paint it much worse than it really is, exaggerating its shortcomings and denying any benefits of that project.

2. It’s absolutely ridiculous to assume that because someone is complaining about the SSE, they wouldn’t be using infrastructure in the corridor. If you care to look at polling from the area, you’d see the SSE is contentions even among Scarborough residents, despite many people waiting to paint this debate as being a unified Scarborough vs rest of Toronto thing. I myself have years of with commutes in excess of 1 hour between Scarborough and downtown or Scarborough and midtown, which only solidified my opposition to the project, as I don’t see this project providing material benefits for commuters (especially not relative to the $3.5 Billion cost).

I don't assume that everyone complaining about the SSE will not be using this corridor. However, some of the persistent opponents indicated that they have nothing to do with Scarborough.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

We are now building a one stop extension in the most expensive fashion as no alternatives were even taken seriously by the Politcal opposition or

The first alternative plan was the Murray plan for the subway extension in the SRT corridor. That was shot down by then-TTC Chair and SSE supporter Karen Stintz.

Then last year Josh Matlow, vocal opponent of the SSE, again proposed running the SSE on the SRT corridor, presumably reducing costs and increasing the station count. TTC then shot down this idea as being infesiable, despite Metrolinx’s contracted engineers determining otherwise.

Finally, after the one-stop solution was proposed, there was another attempt by certain councillors to find a cheaper solution. This was swiftly shot down by councillor Glen DeBearmaker; nothing was to get in the way of his one-stop extension proposal.

In this midst of all this, I can’t reall a single instance of an SSE supporting council member ever making an attempt to find cheaper or more workable alternatives.

It’s also noteworthy that, following the deletion of two of the three proposed SSE stops, councillors never made an attempt to quantify how reducing the number of rapid transit stops in Scarborough would affect travel times. You’d think that, if improving travel times is indeed our goal, the #1 question for all councillors, regardless of their position on the SSE, would be how does this affect travel times for commuters in the area. Evidently Council doesn’t care, and political expediency was prioritized over properly understanding the implications of their decisions

 

[Rainforest]

The first alternative plan was the Murray plan for the subway extension in the SRT corridor. That was shot down by then-TTC Chair and SSE supporter Karen Stintz.

Then last year Josh Matlow, vocal opponent of the SSE, again proposed running the SSE on the SRT corridor, presumably reducing costs and increasing the station count. TTC then shot down this idea as being infesiable, despite Metrolinx’s contracted engineers determining otherwise.

Finally, after the one-stop solution was proposed, there was another attempt by certain councillors to find a cheaper solution. This was swiftly shot down by councillor Glen DeBearmaker; nothing was to get in the way of his one-stop extension proposal.

In this midst of all this, I can’t reall a single instance of an SSE supporting council member ever making an attempt to find cheaper or more workable alternatives.

It’s also noteworthy that, following the deletion of two of the three proposed SSE stops, councillors never made an attempt to quantify how reducing the number of rapid transit stops in Scarborough would affect travel times. You’d think that, if improving travel times is indeed our goal, the #1 question for all councillors, regardless of their position on the SSE, would be how does this affect travel times for commuters in the area. Evidently Council doesn’t care, and political expediency was prioritized over properly understanding the implications of their decisions

I think that Stintz was right originally, as the costs estimates at the time were favorable for the 3-stop extension with a better station locations than in the Murray's plan. Murray didn't really have a plan at all, he just was frustrated by the city council flip-flopping on the technology and wanted to get something firmly decided.

However when the costs escalated, and especially with the shift to 1-stop plan, all advantages of the McCowan route are lost. Now the SRT corridor route should be taken as acceptable, as well as Brimley or Midland corridor. The hard part is to avoid adding more delays, should the corridor be changed.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I think that Stintz was right originally, as the costs estimates at the time were favorable for the 3-stop extension with a better station locations than in the Murray's plan. Murray didn't really have a plan at all, he just was frustrated by the city council flip-flopping on the technology and wanted to get something firmly decided.

If my memory serves me correctly, the Murray plan was significantly cheaper than the three-stop subway proposal of the day, but it omitted the cost of the additional rolling stock that would be needed to operate the extension. With that factored in, it was still cheaper (albeit with a far smaller price delta relative to the underground alignment).

I’d be willing to cut Stintz some slack, but it was clear that her decision was made on ideological, populist grounds, and not because she was looking for the best option for commuters and taxpayers. Her justification for rejecting the surface subway option was that Scarborough deserved real “underground” subways, and not surface transit. Taking right out of Ford’s playbook

This attitude was not conducive to good decision making.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

However when the costs escalated, and especially with the shift to 1-stop plan, all advantages of the McCowan route are lost. Now the SRT corridor route should be taken as acceptable, as well as Brimley or Midland corridor. The hard part is to avoid adding more delays, should the corridor be changed.

Clearly there is no way to avoid delays with an alignment switch. Personally, I'd happily switch to the SRT alignment, even if it resulted in delays of several years and a price even more expensive than the one-stop option, if only because we'd be servicing a wider area of Scarborough. Yes it might be more expensive, but we'd be getting better value for those dollars.

 

[Rainforest]

If my memory serves me correctly, the Murray plan was significantly cheaper than the three-stop subway proposal of the day, but it omitted the cost of the additional rolling stock that would be needed to operate the extension. With that factored in, it was still cheaper (albeit with a far smaller price delta relative to the underground alignment).

I’d be willing to cut Stintz some slack, but it was clear that her decision was made on ideological, populist grounds, and not because she was looking for the best option for commuters and taxpayers. Her justification for rejecting the surface subway option was that Scarborough deserved real “underground” subways, and not surface transit. Taking right out of Ford’s playbook

This attitude was not conducive to good decision making.

Perhaps her wording was silly, but the underlying idea was correct: three stops in the McCowan corridor at Lawrence, STC, and Sheppard would provide much better transit coverage than two stops (Murray's plan) at Lawrence @ SRT and at STC.

Clearly there is no way to avoid delays with an alignment switch. Personally, I'd happily switch to the SRT alignment, even if it resulted in delays of several years and a price even more expensive than the one-stop option, if only because we'd be servicing a wider area of Scarborough. Yes it might be more expensive, but we'd be getting better value for those dollars.

Not sure that's a good idea. Ellesmere and Midland stops on the SRT alignment are very poorly used. Lawrence East stop is well used, but can be replaced with RER/SmartTrack if the riders get TTC fare.

All valuable stops on the SRT alignment would be located east of STC: Centennial Progress, Sheppard @ Progress, perhaps Bellamy and Malvern Centre. For all of those stops, a subway is a massive overkill; it makes much more sense to run light rail on that route and connect to subway at STC.

But if we intent to build light rail east of STC, then the only rationale for changing the subway alignment should be lowering the cost, or adding a Lawrence station for the same / slightly higher cost.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

If my memory serves me correctly, the Murray plan was significantly cheaper than the three-stop subway proposal of the day, but it omitted the cost of the additional rolling stock that would be needed to operate the extension. With that factored in, it was still cheaper (albeit with a far smaller price delta relative to the underground alignment).

I’d be willing to cut Stintz some slack, but it was clear that her decision was made on ideological, populist grounds, and not because she was looking for the best option for commuters and taxpayers. Her justification for rejecting the surface subway option was that Scarborough deserved real “underground” subways, and not surface transit. Taking right out of Ford’s playbook

This attitude was not conducive to good decision making.

Perhaps her wording was silly, but the underlying idea was correct: three stops in the McCowan corridor at Lawrence, STC, and Sheppard would provide much better transit coverage than two stops (Murray's plan) at Lawrence @ SRT and at STC.

That's a rather.... generous interpretation. The public aren't total idiots, and if she had a problem with station location she would've just said so. "The underground option has more/better stations" is not a complicated message to get across. It's clear that Stintz's intention was to politically capitalize on the "Scarborough deserves subways" mantra that Ford was pushing at the time, negative repercussions be damned.

In any case, her comments that Scarbrough deserves "real" underground subways, and not "fake" surface subways, poisoned the well and ultimately contributed to the inferior solution that was selected. We can't even begin to discuss optimized solutions when municipal leaders blindly dismiss potential solutions under ideological justifications.

And I must emphasize, this wasn't some random councillor making a dumb comment. This was the TTC chair claiming nothing but underground would suffice because that is what is "deserved".

Not sure that's a good idea. Ellesmere and Midland stops on the SRT alignment are very poorly used. Lawrence East stop is well used, but can be replaced with RER/SmartTrack if the riders get TTC fare.

All valuable stops on the SRT alignment would be located east of STC: Centennial Progress, Sheppard @ Progress, perhaps Bellamy and Malvern Centre. For all of those stops, a subway is a massive overkill; it makes much more sense to run light rail on that route and connect to subway at STC.

But if we intent to build light rail east of STC, then the only rationale for changing the subway alignment should be lowering the cost, or adding a Lawrence station for the same / slightly higher cost.

Building in the SRT corridor would've allowed us to connect the subway to Sheppard, Centennial, Lawrence East and Malvern cheaper than the underground alignment, which is why I am supportive of it.

 

[sixrings]

The one stop extension is vote buying. Which is why the SRT Murray alignment was never going to happen as well. That would have shut down the rt for years and scarborough would have gone nuts even if it was the cheaper option. Funny how despite people allegedly hating the SRT they knew people would dislike shuttle busses even more. Kind of makes me think that the people would have liked the lrt if it would have been built as well as we are underestimating how unimpressed the general public would be with brt.

 

[BurlOak]

That's a rather.... generous interpretation. The public aren't total idiots, and if she had a problem with station location she would've just said so. "The underground option has more/better stations" is not a complicated message to get across. It's clear that Stintz's intention was to politically capitalize on the "Scarborough deserves subways" mantra that Ford was pushing at the time, negative repercussions be damned.

In any case, her comments that Scarbrough deserves "real" underground subways, and not "fake" surface subways, poisoned the well and ultimately contributed to the inferior solution that was selected. We can't even begin to discuss optimized solutions when municipal leaders blindly dismiss potential solutions under ideological justifications.

And I must emphasize, this wasn't some random councillor making a dumb comment. This was the TTC chair claiming nothing but underground would suffice because that is what is "deserved".

Building in the SRT corridor would've allowed us to connect the subway to Sheppard, Centennial, Lawrence East and Malvern cheaper than the underground alignment, which is why I am supportive of it.

The ironic thing was that Ford was perfectly ok with the surface SRT route - when connected to Eglinton.