Debate on the merits of the Scarborough Subway Extension

[syn]

An irrelevant perspective that would apply to urban areas containing about 60% of the country's population. As per your argument, Mississauga, Brampton, Oshawa, Markham, Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton, Montreal, Quebec City, Winnipeg, Hamilton, London, etc are all a "province from an economic perspective."



Because it's not a province.





That's still a smaller percentage of the overall transit plan for Toronto than any other city in Ontario. Sooner or later, they will start voting in politicians who demand the same deal as Toronto. They'd be stupid not to.



You say that and always follow with:



So you're not really for raising revenue for transit. You just want revenue raised for projects you'll personally support (and I suspect benefit from).

Toronto's GDP is not far off Vancouver, Montreal's and Calgary's combined - and we're ignoring that these cities receive major provincial and federal investments.

If you have a problem with Toronto's property taxes, then I'm sure you'll take issue with theirs as well:


Montreal

• Estimated commercial property taxes per $1,000 of assessment: $37.12
• Estimated residential property taxes per $1,000 of assessment: $8.27
• Commercial-to-residential ratio: 4.49, up 1.9 per cent from last year
• -his is the tenth year in a row the ratio has risen in Montreal. Both commercial and residential rates fell from last year, but residential rates are declining more quickly. The city has one of the highest estimated commercial tax rates per $1,000 of assessment.

Vancouver

• Estimated commercial property taxes per $1,000 of assessment: $15.91
• Estimated residential property taxes per $1,000 of assessment: $3.68
• Commercial-to-residential ratio: 4.33, down 0.4 per cent from last year
• The ratio has been fairly stable for three years.

Calgary

• Estimated commercial property taxes per $1,000 of assessment: $14.11
• Estimated residential property taxes per $1,000 of assessment: $6.10
• Commercial-to-residential ratio: 2.31, up 2.2 per cent from last year
• Calgary has one of the lowest estimated tax rates on commercial properties per $1,000 of assessment

Toronto

• Estimated commercial property taxes per $1,000 of assessment: $28.98
• Estimated residential property taxes per $1,000 of assessment: $7.23
• Commercial-to-residential ratio: 4.01, down 1.5 per cent from last year
• The ratio has been falling for 11 years. The city aims to reduce the tax ratios for commercial properties to 2.5 times the residential rate by 2020. It cut residential taxes for the sixth year in a row.

If you think wasting transit dollars is a good idea, that's your prerogative. As a Toronto taxpayer I'm not a fan of billions in funding down the drain for an ill advised extension that essentially just helps politicians looking for votes.

As I've mentioned quite a few times before, I travel to Scarborough quite frequently - not only do I have no issue whatsoever with making an RT transfer (just as I don't have a problem transferring to the streetcar at Spadina), it offers a level of flexibility this $5 billion boondoggle will never provide.

This thread is about the merits of the SSE - I'd love to see what factually based 'merits' you can actually provide in it's favour, instead of pretending it's all about me not benefiting from it.

 

[Voltz]

I don't think opponents of the subway proposal even realize what it is they are objecting to. A subway to the geographic center of Scarborough (McCowan/Ellesmere) will reduce commute times for constituents from all corners of Scarborough. And that massive 34-bay bus terminal planned for the subway extension will have BRT-lite routes radiating to all over Scarborough:

How quickly we forget.

Yes people do forget, you forget that the SSE is not an alternative to what is there now, but what was going to be, and it was going to be much better off for most riders in Scarborough, and I am one of them, than it will be with this one Subway stop.

You forget that this boondoggle has made building anything else in Scarborough politically or financially impossible, nothing will be built on Sheppard, or on Eglinton east of Kennedy, nothing will be done for riders who will be stuck in crowded busses in slow traffic, nothing will get built to Centennial College or UTSC or Malvern. You forget that this subway is not rationally better than the LRT plan whatsoever and is not supported by any experts, it is being built primarily because Stintz and GDB thought so highly of themselves that they believed it was worth wasting billions and screwing transit for another generation just to support their political campaigns.

And these bus routes can be rearranged now, no subway is needed, and they will certainly not be BRT anything.

 

[Tuck]

I don't think opponents of the subway proposal even realize what it is they are objecting to. A subway to the geographic center of Scarborough (McCowan/Ellesmere) will reduce commute times for constituents from all corners of Scarborough.

You're exaggerating greatly.

There can be no density without something in place to trigger population growth and intensification of development. This was Yonge and Sheppard in 1955 before the subway opened there:

Development in this city correlates with subway/rapid transit expansion, whether we'd like to admit it or not. To think anything less than a subway could produce similar results is wishful at best.

Again, an exaggeration.

"Facts" mean nothing without context. What you chose to leave out of your post says just as much as the cherry picking you decided to actually include.

Travel times may decrease, slightly at best, but people will be spending more time on the bus. You're also ignoring the fact that the LRT would have also gone to the geographic center of Scarborough and everywhere else too.
A subway is not the only way to trigger development. Land use policies are, at a fraction of the cost. See: Square One.

 

[Juan_Lennon416]

"Facts" mean nothing without context.

A problem on both sides of the Subway/LRT fence

 

[Rainforest]

... has made building anything else in Scarborough politically or financially impossible, nothing will be built on Sheppard, or on Eglinton east of Kennedy, nothing will be done for riders who will be stuck in crowded busses in slow traffic, nothing will get built to Centennial College or UTSC or Malvern.

There is no ground for this sort of pessimism. UTSC is getting the BRT (Durham Pulse). It is very likely that Eglinton East / Kingston Rd will get light rail soon; if not right now than in the next round of transit funding.

Options to built light rail to Centennial / Malvern, as well as Sheppard and / or Finch, are still on the table and can be nicely anchored by the STC subway station if the routes are laid out properly.

Many buses will be less crowded because they will have shorter routes to the subway station, and their slow movement will have less impact on the travel time because of the shorter distance to travel.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

There is no ground for this sort of pessimism

Have you seen the past 50 years of transit "planning" in Toronto?

 

[Voltz]

There is no ground for this sort of pessimism. UTSC is getting the BRT (Durham Pulse). It is very likely that Eglinton East / Kingston Rd will get light rail soon; if not right now than in the next round of transit funding.

Options to built light rail to Centennial / Malvern, as well as Sheppard and / or Finch, are still on the table and can be nicely anchored by the STC subway station if the routes are laid out properly.

Many buses will be less crowded because they will have shorter routes to the subway station, and their slow movement will have less impact on the travel time because of the shorter distance to travel.

No grounds? Really?

Where is this funding coming from? Tory has not made any mention of where the city might raise funds to match federal funding, and with Doug running against him he will certainly not bring it up now.

Just what option is there to build anything to Centennial College or Malvern? Especially one that is on the table?

No one running for Mayor or in the next provincial election will be mentioning LRT on Sheppard, it has been poisoned politically.

Just how will buses have shorter routes than now? Or even shorter than if LRT's had been built?

 

[Rainforest]

Have you seen the past 50 years of transit "planning" in Toronto?

The end of 20-th century wasn't good for transit in this city.

But in the last 15 years or so, we've got:
- TYSSE and Eglinton LRT: under construction
- Enhanced GO service: some in place, more to come
- Enhanced express bus network: in place
- Finch LRT and SSE: funded / in design

IMO, the glass is more than half full.

 

[Rainforest]

No grounds? Really?

Where is this funding coming from? Tory has not made any mention of where the city might raise funds to match federal funding, and with Doug running against him he will certainly not bring it up now.

Just what option is there to build anything to Centennial College or Malvern? Especially one that is on the table?

I can't speak for every mayoral candidate, but the amount of funding needed for these lines is modest and can be raised by a property tax levy.

No one running for Mayor or in the next provincial election will be mentioning LRT on Sheppard, it has been poisoned politically.

True. But the funding is technically still allocated. It would be a good idea to transfer the said funding to Eglinton East LRT, or the line to Malvern, or extending the Finch LRT eastwards.

Just how will buses have shorter routes than now? Or even shorter than if LRT's had been built?

If you look at the post-SSE bus map, some of the routes that run parallel to the RT today will be reconfigured to feed into the SSE subway terminus.

 

[kEiThZ]

we're ignoring that these cities receive major provincial and federal investments.

You act as though Toronto doesn't get any federal and provincial investment. Your arguments are getting ridiculous in this regard.

If you have a problem with Toronto's property taxes, then I'm sure you'll take issue with theirs as well

Yes. They should raise them. I am consistent on this. Relying on higher levels of government for transit funding is boneheaded. It leaves you at their mercy. If Montreal and Vancouver voters want to do that, it's the problem. I don't think it's wise for Toronto.

If you think wasting transit dollars is a good idea, that's your prerogative.

If you're going to put words in my mouth, I'm not even going to bother. I'd like you to quote the post where I said wasting transit dollars was a good idea. I said it was inevitable that a subway plan would be pushed just like the LRT plan was, when it was all based on provincial money.

This thread is about the merits of the SSE - I'd love to see what factually based 'merits' you can actually provide in it's favour, instead of pretending it's all about me not benefiting from it.

I stand by earlier comments. If Toronto was building the DRL, nobody would really see the SSE in competition. As for the merits, I've never said I support a one-stop subway for several billion.

I also stand by my comments that self-interest has some measure in your vitriol against the SSE.

 

[Sakraycore]

Here's an interesting take on this debate. For the die-hard subway supporters, what kind of alternative plan would have to be proposed for you to vote for that one instead of the current SSE?

For me, if they bring back the sheppard LRT.

 

[Rainforest]

Here's an interesting take on this debate. For the die-hard subway supporters, what kind of alternative plan would have to be proposed for you to vote for that one instead of the current SSE?

For me, if they bring back the sheppard LRT.

IMO, there is no viable alternative to SSE at this point. Trying to change it now would result in much confusion and delay, and multiple rounds of endless debates in the city council. All for a modest saving, or no saving at all (the property tax levy is likely to get cancelled if SSE is cancelled, and hence that portion will be lost for transit anyway).

If there was more time before the SRT has to be decommissioned, and more willingness of the city to explore unconventional solutions, then perhaps a GO RER service from STC to Union, via the SRT corridor and Uxbridge sub, would be a better deal than SSE.

The RER service would have to be reasonably frequent, approx. every 10 min at peak, and presumably another branch would continue to serve Agincourt / future Finch East / Mulliken stations, as well as stations in Markham. That would put quite a bit of demand on the rail infrastructure approaching Union.

 

[BurlOak]

IMO, there is no viable alternative to SSE at this point. Trying to change it now would result in much confusion and delay, and multiple rounds of endless debates in the city council. All for a modest saving, or no saving at all (the property tax levy is likely to get cancelled if SSE is cancelled, and hence that portion will be lost for transit anyway).

If there was more time before the SRT has to be decommissioned, and more willingness of the city to explore unconventional solutions, then perhaps a GO RER service from STC to Union, via the SRT corridor and Uxbridge sub, would be a better deal than SSE.

The RER service would have to be reasonably frequent, approx. every 10 min at peak, and presumably another branch would continue to serve Agincourt / future Finch East / Mulliken stations, as well as stations in Markham. That would put quite a bit of demand on the rail infrastructure approaching Union.

Agree with both. Politically, at this time, probably nothing can be done. All politicians have lost credibility and farther delays or revised plans would not be welcome by the public.
If we acted sooner, the a SmartSpur to STC (and maybe even Centennial and Malvern) would have worked, or possibly a separate transit line from STC to downtown.

 

[syn]

You act as though Toronto doesn't get any federal and provincial investment. Your arguments are getting ridiculous in this regard.

No, I'm pointing out that the tax structure in Canada requires provincial and federal investments at the local level. You suggested Toronto should raise taxes to fund it's own transit, when it lacks the revenue tools necessary to do so, kind of like Vancouver and Montreal. The same is true in the US as well.

Toronto receives a disproportionate amount of funding relative to the tax revenue it generates.

We simply need more of our money back for our own needs.

I stand by earlier comments. If Toronto was building the DRL, nobody would really see the SSE in competition. As for the merits, I've never said I support a one-stop subway for several billion.

I also stand by my comments that self-interest has some measure in your vitriol against the SSE.

Then what do you support?

You're basically arguing for wasting $5 billion in tax dollars on an ill-advised extension. You keep accusing me of having a problem with the line due to some irrational hate of it (despite pointing out many facts) - perhaps you should look in the mirror?

Do you even use the RT?

 

[UD2]

Only scarbrough will support the notion of removing 5 stations and replacing it with 1.

Sometimes I feel that some people simply deserve what they get. The best way to do this was to simply retrofit the RT to modern standards, a solution that Vancouver had successfully employed for decades. The second best is to extend ECT onto the tracks.

John Tory needed the SRT track space to build smart trak, and the province needed the same space for the RER. The residents of Scarborough just ate their lies like candy.

And now they're going to live for the next 20 years with nothing built.