Debate on the merits of the Scarborough Subway Extension

[Rainforest]

Yes try building all those subways for $ 5 billion.

Yeah, that's hard to imagine. DRL Phase 1 alone will cost more than $5 billion.

Now if they get the matching federal contribution ...

 

[Hopkins123]

Yeah, that's hard to imagine. DRL Phase 1 alone will cost more than $5 billion.

Now if they get the matching federal contribution ...

DRL's gonna need so much money, it'll make all other subway projects including one-stop SSE look like a bargain by comparison. We could try to squeeze a DRL out of $5 billion but I think it'd wind up disappointing far more constituents overall than it'd wind up helping.

Now think of it another way:

BD to Dixie-Dundas: $1.5 billion, largely elevated
Sheppard Subway East to Agincourt: $2.5 billion, largely cut-and-cover
Yonge North to Steeles: $1 billion

= $5 billion, spreads the wealth across Toronto

Tories are assuming the costs of SSE and may and likely will add back the missing stops @Eglinton, Lawrence and Sheppard through separate funding.

The City and Feds come up with funding for Crosstown East and West beyond what's already committed to by the Province.

Election 2019 (or worse case scenario Election 2023), Feds commit upwards of $20 billion to build all of DRL (Mt Dennis to Finch/Don Mills) in one shot on an escalated time schedule (complete by 2031). Better than the status quo at least, I'd think.

 

[M II A II R II K]

And the difference is the DRL is worth the money, the bullshit SSE design is not.

 

[syn]

SSE is very reasonable. Alaska bridge would be an absurd. Comparing the two makes no sense whatsoever.

Something virtually no transit expert would agree with.

The SSE is absolutely absurd.

 

[Juan_Lennon416]

And the difference is the DRL is worth the money

Yeah but how much is "worth the money?" Can't just say oh it's badly needed so we'll spend any amount.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Something virtually no transit expert would agree with.

The SSE is absolutely absurd.

Really, it isn't. Listen to the transit experts. Byford openly states that he doesn't care whether its a subway or LRT. Keesmatt isn't too happy with it, but doesn't consider it a disaster.

The thing isn't exactly a high value proposition. But it isn't some complete disaster like that Alaska bridge would be. Its something that probably isn't quite worth $3.35b, but it's not like that money is just getting thrown into the pits of hell either.

Also, the PCs are planning for a federal match on their spending, which I would consider quite likely.. so the budget is really $10 billion.

 

[OneCity]

Really, it isn't. Listen to the transit experts. Byford openly states that he doesn't care whether its a subway or LRT. Keesmatt isn't too happy with it, but doesn't consider it a disaster.

The thing isn't exactly a high value proposition. But it isn't some complete disaster like that Alaska bridge would be. Its something that probably isn't quite worth $3.35b, but it's not like that money is just getting thrown into the pits of hell either.

Also, the PCs are planning for a federal match on their spending, which I would consider quite likely.. so the budget is really $10 billion.

We built a subway to Vaughan Centre with half the population and they are giving themselves Urban design awards. We hear very little bad press, and no one seems to be really complaining. Such an unproportional amount of hate that gets thrown around when it come to Scarborough Centre.

It'll be great to the subway system taken from the City hands with the polarization. Very good chance if it does happen the Lawrence stop gets added back in as It was mainly Downtown council that opposed. And it will also be time for Downtown council to show there sincerity to Scarborough and love for streetcars/LRT and build the Eglinton LRT line as a loop thru Malvern back to SCC or to link with the future Sheppard subway extension which will no longer be the City's concern

 

[Rainforest]

Something virtually no transit expert would agree with.

The SSE is absolutely absurd.

They are free to disagree. The voters have spoken and the government bodies have settled.

SSE is very reasonable.

 

[Rainforest]

DRL's gonna need so much money, it'll make all other subway projects including one-stop SSE look like a bargain by comparison. We could try to squeeze a DRL out of $5 billion but I think it'd wind up disappointing far more constituents overall than it'd wind up helping.

Now think of it another way:

BD to Dixie-Dundas: $1.5 billion, largely elevated
Sheppard Subway East to Agincourt: $2.5 billion, largely cut-and-cover
Yonge North to Steeles: $1 billion

= $5 billion, spreads the wealth across Toronto

Tories are assuming the costs of SSE and may and likely will add back the missing stops @Eglinton, Lawrence and Sheppard through separate funding.

The City and Feds come up with funding for Crosstown East and West beyond what's already committed to by the Province.

Election 2019 (or worse case scenario Election 2023), Feds commit upwards of $20 billion to build all of DRL (Mt Dennis to Finch/Don Mills) in one shot on an escalated time schedule (complete by 2031). Better than the status quo at least, I'd think.

After SSE, we must start the Relief line, even if we only can afford Phase 1 to Danforth within the $5 provincial money and hopefully the matching federal contribution. The whole subway system will be at risk of severe blockages if we don't address the capacity crunch downstream.

Sheppard East and Dundas can live with buses for a while. Yonge North barely manages with buses, but that route happens to be the one which would bring most of additional riders to downstream Yonge.

So, they must start the Relief line, and if they can add Yonge North, that would be a nice to have.

 

[Leo_Chan]

After SSE, we must start the Relief line, even if we only can afford Phase 1 to Danforth within the $5 provincial money and hopefully the matching federal contribution. The whole subway system will be at risk of severe blockages if we don't address the capacity crunch downstream.

Sheppard East and Dundas can live with buses for a while. Yonge North barely manages with buses, but that route happens to be the one which would bring most of additional riders to downstream Yonge.

So, they must start the Relief line, and if they can add Yonge North, that would be a nice to have.

A subway line for $5? What a steal!

This sums up my opinions. SSE will be built, just do it any way. no matter the value for money. Relief Line South is a must project for anything else to start building. Relief Line North would be great, but unfortunately it is not as valuable as Yonge North, which will be next. Sheppard East and West can wait as it is one of the less useful projects. And Relief Line West is more important than Sheppard, but it is too less seen as an important project.

The only uncertainty is whether or not Yonge North will be built before Relief Line South.

 

[M II A II R II K]

Perhaps the RT can be updated and kept along with the one stop extension. The one stop extension can be a relief line for the RT and the RT stops would not be lost and only serve people who are going to those stop destinations. Just have to abolish the McCowan and SCC stops and add a new RT stop at SCC to interchange with the new Line 2 station.

 

[aquateam]

Perhaps the RT can be updated and kept along with the one stop extension. The one stop extension can be a relief line for the RT and the RT stops would not be lost and only serve people who are going to those stop destinations. Just have to abolish the McCowan and SCC stops and add a new RT stop at SCC to interchange with the new Line 2 station.

This definitely wouldn't happen because the space from the SRT corridor along the Stouffville tracks will be used for RER.

And given that the SRT already functions as a shuttle from STC to Kennedy, the Bloor-Danforth line will cannibalize almost all the ridership, so it wouldn't be worth the costs of refurbishing the line (~500 million for vehicles and track work) and the ongoing operating costs for the handful of people who would get on at the intermediate stops and who don't want to switch to the new subway.

The problem with the SRT is its length. If it were extended north east to centennial, Sheppard, and Malvern centre like originally planned then no one would be talking about abandoning it. And if the Eglinton LRT were built as an eastern extension of the SRT then we wouldn't be building this one-stop subway. But as a shuttle between Kennedy and STC, isolated from the rest of the network, its usefulness is questioned.

 

[syn]

Really, it isn't. Listen to the transit experts. Byford openly states that he doesn't care whether its a subway or LRT. Keesmatt isn't too happy with it, but doesn't consider it a disaster.

The thing isn't exactly a high value proposition. But it isn't some complete disaster like that Alaska bridge would be. Its something that probably isn't quite worth $3.35b, but it's not like that money is just getting thrown into the pits of hell either.

Also, the PCs are planning for a federal match on their spending, which I would consider quite likely.. so the budget is really $10 billion.

In other words, they don't think it's reasonable.

Keesmatt doesn't support the subway. She simply went ahead with what council decided.

How chief planner Jennifer Keesmaat tried to stop the Scarborough subway
https://www.thestar.com/news/city_h...aat-tried-to-stop-the-scarborough-subway.html
Jennifer Keesmaat on 5 years as chief planner, being told to 'stick to the knitting,' and what comes next

"In her interview, Keesmaat also praised the democratic process and said once council made a decision, even if she disagreed, she couldn't speak out against it. She admitted that did lead to being put in the "awkward" position of having to implement ideas she didn't always agree with, such as the controversial one-stop Scarborough subway.


"I went away and created a network plan that was really about making the best that I possibly could out of that decision from city council," she said."

Byford has to abide by council decisions too.

How many transit experts not bound by city decisions think this is reasonable? It's almost unanimously considered a bad idea. Even Metrolinx thinks it's not a worthwhile use of money.

They are free to disagree. The voters have spoken and the government bodies have settled.

SSE is very reasonable.

I guess Trump is a great President.

The voters have spoken and the government bodies have settled.

 

[OneCity]

Perhaps the RT can be updated and kept along with the one stop extension. The one stop extension can be a relief line for the RT and the RT stops would not be lost and only serve people who are going to those stop destinations. Just have to abolish the McCowan and SCC stops and add a new RT stop at SCC to interchange with the new Line 2 station.

Not likely to feed back thru Midland and Ellesmere but a cross City Centre line to Malvern using the same alignment will likely be considered. I'm interested to see how the reconfigure Sheppard and specifically how will the Eglinton East will be meshed? Will it connect to SCC back thru Centennial College or just connect to the proposed subway loop on Sheppard.

A subway line for $5? What a steal!

This sums up my opinions. SSE will be built, just do it any way. no matter the value for money. Relief Line South is a must project for anything else to start building. Relief Line North would be great, but unfortunately it is not as valuable as Yonge North, which will be next. Sheppard East and West can wait as it is one of the less useful projects. And Relief Line West is more important than Sheppard, but it is too less seen as an important project.

The only uncertainty is whether or not Yonge North will be built before Relief Line South.

Pretty much agree,

None of the other subway lines were ever going to be supported in Scarborough if the SSE and Sheppard was built. The biggest reason the Province has gone all-in was they knew this and immediately after Ford called it out they quickly got on board with no hesitation. While this may have been a tough last 10 years for the City, it has also brought transit to the forefront for all parties and will likely make it easier to push thru other Mega projects without great opposition in the future.

I would guess Richmond Hill extension and DRL short will likely be combined as a joint vote buying package we will see very soon. Sheppard will be bundled with DRL long or West in the next round. And then Mississauga and DRL long or West to follow.

 

[Leo_Chan]

Would a realigned SRT that goes from Scarborough Centre to Malvern Centre be probable? So basically the original extension for the SRT, but with the original section from Kennedy to STC removed.

Not likely. I'm interested to see how the reconfigure Sheppard. How will the Sheppard LRT with Eglinton East be meshed? Will connect to SCC back thru Centennial College or just connect to the proposed subway loop on Sheppard.

No Sheppard LRT, only subway and LRT from STC to Malvern Centre to UTSC?