Debate on the merits of the Scarborough Subway Extension

[Leo_Chan]

All 3 lines ending at McCowan & Sheppard makes more sense:

• Crossing the 401 1 time instead of 3 times
• Opportunity to massively redevelop Sheppard Avenue East
• TTC route could be rerouted more efficiently
• Cost saving

How would Centennial College and East/West of STC be served then?

 

[OneCity]

How would Centennial College and East/West of STC be served then?

A cross City Center to Malvern LRT makes the most sense. But that could also be another battle at City hall seen as it is similar to the Transit City plan pre subway and councillors to hold grudges and he subway will no longer be there to battle. It will be very interesting to see how Malvern is handled here

 

[Cobra]

How would Centennial College and East/West of STC be served then?

Buses? Express service?

 

[Hopkins123]

How would Centennial College and East/West of STC be served then?

This...

It'd be so great Scarborough gets a solution like this. Paging Mr. Brown.

 

[syn]

Another question to ask is that if the PC takes the SSE file off the city hands, how likely is it that they stick to the 1 stop subway plan?

I think it's low and could see the 3 stop plan back if the feds match the PC contribution. It would end up being 3 stops for roughly the same price from the province's perspective if the feds pay for the other half.

Politically, it gets them more votes in Scarborough north of the 401 and they aren't attached to Crosstown East by dumping it on the city.

The cost for a 3 stop solution 17 months ago was $4.3 billion. In that time, a one stop solution has ballooned to nearly $4 billion on it's own, and they're not even at 30% as far as the design phase goes. City Staff have made it clear a 50% increase in the lowball $3.35 billion current estimate is very possible.

Three stops would be outrageously expensive at this point - probably in the $6 billion range, subject to even greater cost increases.

This is why they discarded that plan last year - there's absolutely no way to justify it. The only justification for the current plan is political.

The reality is that there simply isn't enough demand for a subway - 2031 projections make this quite clear.

Hopefully all levels of government come to their senses when the next price increase is announced - and hopefully it's much sooner than 2019.

 

[Rainforest]

I guess Trump is a great President.

The voters have spoken and the government bodies have settled.

Whining how bad Trump is won't change a thing. Those who want to oust him, need to prepare well for the 2020 elections.

 

[Rainforest]

I'm not sure that would make any sense - might as well keep the upgraded SRT and forget about a subway. I'd be all for that.

Otherwise, just dump the subway and build the Crosstown East extension. It can be looped with STC back to Kennedy (running in both directions) to provide a transfer free connection to the Yonge Line for far more residents than the SSE extension would, along with real rapid transit for in-Scarborough trips.

Can you, at least, provide more details on your proposed routing. From Kennedy along Eglinton and Kingston Road to UofT Scarborough, then back to STC, then what? Back to Kennedy? Along McCowan, or using the SRT - Uxbridge Sub route?

And most importantly, which route would the vehicles coming from Yonge & Eglinton take once the pass Kennedy? East to UofT Scarborough, or north-east to STC?

Scarborough subway advocates claim they care about Scarborough transit but refuse to support any plan that would actually enhance transit in Scarborough.

Such plan already exists: subway extension, plus light rail and bus routes feeding into STC and Kennedy stations. Even though you prefer not to admit it.

 

[syn]

Are you not paying attention?

There's no money for any light rail in Scarborough. The one-stop boondoggle has eaten up all the available funding and will require even more.

How does the one stop plan make things easier for riders at Lawrence? Ellesmere? Midland? Especially those currently in walking distance from a stop?

 

[Cobra]

How does the one stop plan make things easier for riders at Lawrence? Ellesmere? Midland? Especially those currently in walking distance from a stop?

There are riders at Ellesmere and Midland???

That's new to me

 

[Hopkins123]

There are riders at Ellesmere and Midland???

That's new to me

I know, right. 5000 daily alightings at Ellesmere+Midland compared to 35000+ daily alightings at Scarborough Centre+McCowan, the latter of which could see over 10000 new residential units on the way.

In some people's quest to see SCC served by a light rail at all costs, they'd prioritize such a low density area as Ellesmere - Midland. Strange.

 

[Voltz]

Are you not paying attention?

There's no money for any light rail in Scarborough. The one-stop boondoggle has eaten up all the available funding and will require even more.

How does the one stop plan make things easier for riders at Lawrence? Ellesmere? Midland? Especially those currently in walking distance from a stop?

As well as riders north of the 401, and in Eastern Scarborough,

If the Sheppard and Scarborough LRT's had not been cancelled, no one would be saying we would have been better off with blowing $2 Billion more and ending up with only one subway stop instead. No one would be saying that they would rather be in crowded buses stuck in traffic to get to that one stop, all for the sake of not having to transfer one level at Kennedy. No one would be saying they would rather make the longest Subway to surface transfer in the system at Don Mills instead of getting on an LRT at that same subway platform that operates free of traffic congestion.

And anyone who believes the Tories will build all these subways they have promised needs their head examined.

 

[Cobra]

As well as riders north of the 401, and in Eastern Scarborough,

If the Sheppard and Scarborough LRT's had not been cancelled, no one would be saying we would have been better off with blowing $2 Billion more and ending up with only one subway stop instead. No one would be saying that they would rather be in crowded buses stuck in traffic to get to that one stop, all for the sake of not having to transfer one level at Kennedy. No one would be saying they would rather make the longest Subway to surface transfer in the system at Don Mills instead of getting on an LRT at that same subway platform that operates free of traffic congestion.

And anyone who believes the Tories will build all these subways they have promised needs their head examined.

Guess some are regretting not taking the Scarborough-Eglinton Crosstown while we had the chance...

for the nostalgics

 

[syn]

I know, right. 5000 daily alightings at Ellesmere+Midland compared to 35000+ daily alightings at Scarborough Centre+McCowan, the latter of which could see over 10000 new residential units on the way.

In some people's quest to see SCC served by a light rail at all costs, they'd prioritize such a low density area as Ellesmere - Midland. Strange.

Thank you. You've just explained exactly why having a subway is such a foolish idea. The density required doesn't exist.

The RT has been around for over 30 years and Scarborough still isn't close to having the density necessary to justify a subway extension.

This report puts STC behind downtown Oakville and downtown Kitchener for job+population density:

http://www.neptis.org/publications/...owntowns-nodes-and-corridors/chapters/density

The data is admittedly quite old, but according to 2011 city stats, the population density in Scarborough Centre is just 4.43 thousand/sq km.

Furthermore, an Metrolinx report that declares the extension a waste of money points out that a completely unrealistic level of development would be necessary to generate the kind of numbers necessary to justify the extension (based on it's earlier, cheaper cost too):

https://www.thestar.com/news/city_h...ugh-subway-not-a-worthwhile-use-of-money.html

I'd also suggest that the riders who use stations other than STC matter a lot. According to TTC stats, Ellesmere, Midland, McCowan and Lawrence see well over 16,000 riders a day. Their lives going to be a lot more inconvenient when the RT is eliminated.

 

[Rainforest]

Are you not paying attention?

There's no money for any light rail in Scarborough. The one-stop boondoggle has eaten up all the available funding and will require even more.

Are you not paying attention?

Transit expansion is all over the city, light rail will be added gradually in all areas including Scarborough.

SSE didn't eat up any of the light rail funding, except for the one line it is replacing. Your statement is totally wrong.

How does the one stop plan make things easier for riders at Lawrence? Ellesmere? Midland? Especially those currently in walking distance from a stop?

Very few riders are within walking distance from those stops. Much more are taking a connecting bus, and their commutes will improve.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Malvern residents left without rapid transit options despite promised improvements

https://www.thestar.com/news/city_h...it-options-despite-promised-improvements.html