syn
Senior Member
Then perhaps you should pay more attention. It was quite clear what Ford stood for.
This entire thread was created to separate nonsense from actual project thread, so you could have somewhere to post.
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Debate on the merits of the Scarborough Subway Extension
- Thread starter kEiThZ
- Start date
Then perhaps you should pay more attention. It was quite clear what Ford stood for.
This entire thread was created to separate nonsense from actual project thread, so you could have somewhere to post.
Hopkins123
Senior Member
What obtuse logic. So what if the bus commute is slightly longer? In most cases it'll be shorter. And furthermore you'd be sparing those commuters the needless transfer from bus-to-LRT-to-subway they'd otherwise have to go through. Have you ever stopped to consider that? Elderly women with canes and mothers with strollers and the physically disabled you're forcing to withstand all these transfers just to save a billion bucks! West Scarborough commuters probably aren't going to travel counter-flow if they're heading into downtown. They'll head west towards DRL and YUS. And McCowan penetrates far deeper into Scarborough than Kennedy/the RT corridor does, ergo most people coming from the east are being spared up to ten minutes commuting time intercepting the subway line far sooner than they would the LRT line. And once on the subway it'll only take them 6 minutes to get to Kennedy and 25 minutes to Bloor-Yonge. How is this not transformative change for most commuters through Scarborough?
As most subway advocates have pointed out already, the situation at Lawrence-McCowan may in fact be salvageable and ergo that's no reason to write off the entire project. With Lawrence (and Eglinton-Brimley) added in, what difference at this point does it make whether or not we proceed with the subway extension.
WislaHD
Superstar
Well, assuming that we didn't care about the billions of dollars extra that a subway would cost over other options... And we are fine with lower frequency service,
The primary concern is if we want to have a subway that long. There are real operational reasons to keep subway routes shorter. Dead ended to a tranfer station at Sheppard is a real possibility, even if Line 4 was extended all the way to say, McCowan and Sheppard to meet Line 2.
syn
Senior Member
Is this sarcasm?
If not, it appears you're one of those Scarborough riders that never actually leave Scarborough. It also appears you have a tenuous grasp of 'logic'.
Here's an idea for the elderly and disabled: an elevator. Are you familiar with the concept? You basically get in, hit a button, and it takes you to another level. It's like magic! Best of all, I can guarantee it'll cost less than $1 billion dollars. They could probably afford a few escalators too.
Believe it or not, but mothers, the elderly and disabled all across Toronto use the TTC without a direct subway connection. Some take the streetcar and then have to transfer. Some have to transfer at more than one point.
That's how transit works.
What's sad is that the previous LRT would've put far more of the elderly and disabled in walking distance of rapid transit, with the potential for (relatively) quick expansion throughout other priority areas of Scarborough.
What a novel idea - rapid transit that actually helps people in Scarborough efficiently get around Scarborough.
Unfortunately the Scarborough elitists don't seem to actually care about the elderly or transit within Scarborough, where most transit trips begin and end - they simply care about a stop at STC so they can park and ride without a transfer...because it's not like anyone else in Toronto ever has to transfer.
44 North
Senior Member
And this while using a dwindling supply of ancient maxed-capacity trains, and having all upgrade plans kicked down the road for decades. For an experiment done on the cheap and that's been neglected its ridership and reliability are really good.
Sometimes I notice similarities between Line 3 and the RL, at least the present RL phase I plans. Both are short standalone lines, both reliant on subway-subway transfers for the majority of ridership, both with nearly identical distances between terminals, both with a similar L-shape, and (this is my opinion) but I think RL is likely to also use narrower subway vehicles.
Hopkins123
Senior Member
I never said these affected groups can't use an elevator. The subway option will also involve elevators obviously. What I'm saying though is what you are promoting will involve longer walking times to transfer between the respective modes of transit. How is that helping people, when for marginally higher cost we can invest in eliminating those transfers? And most transit trips don't end in Scarborough, less than half do:
Seems like a sizable chunk are in fact going to the areas surrounding the YUS Line.
Rainforest
Senior Member
Do you understand math and statistics, in particular the difference between a systematic sampling error, and the margin of error that is normally caused by the limited sample size?
Assume you have a town with 100,000 people, 32% of them like basketball and 44% like baseball. When you poll 500 people, you might find that 34% of those polled like basketball, and 41% like baseball. You will have a margin of error equal to 2 or 3 or 4 points. You could get a smaller error by polling more people, but for many purposes, your results are already good enough.
Now if you conduct your poll on a day of a major baseball game, you might get only 15% responses in favor of baseball. That's because many baseball fans will be out watching the game, or glued to the screens and not taking phone calls. That would be a systematic sampling error. The error wouldn't get any smaller if you polled more people on the same day, and it wouldn't be reflected in the margin of error.
Anyway, I said that the poll results have to be taken with a grain of salt; never said that they all should be ignored.
Cherry picking is selecting one group of data that suites you most, and ignoring the rest. That's exactly what you are doing when you refer to the polls only and ignore results of multiple election campaigns.
Just because you call the polls far more reliable, they don't actually become far more reliable.
The majority of Torontoians are fine with the subway plan.
In your imagination.
During the 2010 election campaign, I heard / read a lot of noises about taxes from the Ford's side, and much less about transit. Therefore I decided to make it a bit easier for you, and not insist on including the 2010 election results in the body of evidence that the electorate tends to support pro-subway candidates.
But if you want them included, no problem. They fit into the trend.
No it's not fair to say what you said.
First of all, homophobia and bigotry were RoFo's personal failings, not elements of his election platform. Secondly, the residents who voted for him, could not possibly expect to benefit from the said features of the mayor. Unlike the subway, that they definitely hoped to benefit from (you are free to believe or not whether they will actually benefit).
It is fair to say that they chose to overlook RoFo's personal failings, in the hope that he will deliver them benefits of another nature. Whether that was a smart choice, is a matter of another debate that isn't relevant for a transit thread.
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Rainforest
Senior Member
It definitely would.
SELRT is likely off the table in its present form. However, it might resurrect as a high-floor, express LRT route that incorporates the Sheppard Subway tunnel.
lead82
Senior Member
SELRT is dead. At this rate the FWLRT may die a slow death by endless delays. It’s subway or bust. The best we may ever see in our life times onboard Sheppard east is a BRT.
Rainforest
Senior Member
Finch isn't helped by the latest delays, but so far it is alive and kicking.
As of Sheppard, it sounds like the main contention point is transfer at Don Mills, rather than the choice of technology. It will be tempting for the pols of all levels to find a solution that eliminates the transfer, and is relatively affordable at the same time.
WislaHD
Superstar
Oh how I would welcome that solution.
We should have a custom-ordered LRT vehicle. If Bombardier doesn't want to build it to our specifications, then I am sure Siemens or some other company would be more than happy too. No absolute need to keep the same rolling stock for every LRT line, especially since it is unlikely Sheppard will connect to any, minus possibly with Crosstown East.
Juan_Lennon416
Senior Member
FWLRT won't die a slow death. I am confident that it will be built
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
Hopkins123
Senior Member
I see you're new to Toronto
Even if it dies, at the very least a 36E route or a 199 Rocket branch west of Keele (Finch West Stn) will emerge.